[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]So congratulations, it’s off with the pith hat and up river to Shanghai for you! 
HG[/quote]
haha. I though those went out of style…like a century ago.
Alot of these posts make me think I should try to get a minor in marketing or design to go a long with my Chinese. (I love how I am already assume that I will be able to acheive a high level of fluency, oh the beauty of looking ahead when you have yet to conquer whats in front of you)
[quote=“Someguy”]“I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese” Ctaitung
May ask what kind of work you do?
[/quote]
Financial industry. Any part of it, if you can read Chinese (apart from speaking it), you’re a made man. If you need a foot in the door, you should first try a local firm (any kind in the financial industry and any department - bank, securities, etc.). You might as well start on ground level. If you can read Chinese and start at ground level, then you’ll likely be picked up within 2-3 years by an international firm.
For other industries, I have the same view - consulting, marketing, sales, etc. Many technology companies need a foreigner to be their “booth man” at all the electronics exhibitions globally. Or, you can start out as technical editor (writing the how-to manuals).
Don’t look down on first working in a local company. That’s where you’ll learn about the Taiwanese/Chinese way of doing things in business, which will help you immensely down the road.
Someguy, if learning Chinese is your main objective, then DEFINITELY go to Beijing. Don’t even consider Taiwan. I’ve lived in both places and without a doubt foreigners living in Beijing gain a much higher level of Chinese proficiency in a much shorter period of time, especially at the beginner level.
Taiwanese people are friendly, but in Taipei too many locals speak English. If your Chinese is limited, you will be bullied into speaking English most of the time while you are out and about. In Beijing; however, most locals will speak to you in Chinese, even if your Chinese is poor.
Personally, I love both places for different reasons, but as far as language learning goes, the Mainland is a better option by far!
(As an aside, getting a study visa for China will also be much easier than getting one for Taiwan. The government in Taiwan makes you go through a lot of red-tape to study here. You start off with a 2-month “visitor visa” and then go to the immigration office every 2 months to extend. After 6 months, you have to leave the country to apply for an actual “student” visa which will allow you to stay for one year. It’s ridiculously complicated for no good reason. In China, I obtained a one-year visa easily with none of the “go to another place to extend every 2 months” hassle.)
I’m not so sure about the whole Beijing will improve your Chinese bit. When I was there just two years ago I found too many locals wanted to speak to me in English. I imagine with the big push for English proficiency for the Olympics it is worse.
In addition, if the OP is studying seriously at say Taida he is in class 4 hours a day, studying at home an equal number and maybe has a language exchange or two on the side. Casual contact with 7-Eleven clerks, restaurant laobans and taxi drivers will all be in Chinese. Get out on the weekend for a day trip: all in Chinese. A busy student who gets a few exhanges in English a day shouldnt find this affects his learning at all.
Also no one has mentioned is health. Chinese cities have foul air outside, smoky air inside, and dodgy water and food to boot. Taiwan has it’s problems but is now comparable to big cities like London and New York for air pollution. Beijing is one of the most polluted cities in the world.
I like Beijing but I could not live there. I might as well move back to Chungli and breathe glue fumes all day.
[quote=“CTaitung”][quote=“Someguy”]“I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese” Ctaitung
May ask what kind of work you do?
[/quote]
Financial industry. Any part of it, if you can read Chinese (apart from speaking it), you’re a made man. If you need a foot in the door, you should first try a local firm (any kind in the financial industry and any department - bank, securities, etc.). You might as well start on ground level. If you can read Chinese and start at ground level, then you’ll likely be picked up within 2-3 years by an international firm.
For other industries, I have the same view - consulting, marketing, sales, etc. Many technology companies need a foreigner to be their “booth man” at all the electronics exhibitions globally. Or, you can start out as technical editor (writing the how-to manuals).
Don’t look down on first working in a local company. That’s where you’ll learn about the Taiwanese/Chinese way of doing things in business, which will help you immensely down the road.[/quote]
Well I work in finance and read Chinese but certainly don’t share your optimism. And as for a “made man”, then I should have been made some time ago. I presume you also have some sort of finance qualification?
Mind you I no longer work for local brokerages, and neither would I ever do so again. My days of clock and back watching are fortunately over.
HG
[quote=“CTaitung”][quote=“Someguy”]“I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese” Ctaitung
May ask what kind of work you do?
[/quote]
Financial industry. Any part of it, if you can read Chinese (apart from speaking it), you’re a made man. If you need a foot in the door, you should first try a local firm (any kind in the financial industry and any department - bank, securities, etc.). You might as well start on ground level. If you can read Chinese and start at ground level, then you’ll likely be picked up within 2-3 years by an international firm.
For other industries, I have the same view - consulting, marketing, sales, etc. Many technology companies need a foreigner to be their “booth man” at all the electronics exhibitions globally. Or, you can start out as technical editor (writing the how-to manuals).
Don’t look down on first working in a local company. That’s where you’ll learn about the Taiwanese/Chinese way of doing things in business, which will help you immensely down the road.[/quote]
Wow, like HG, I never heard of anyone saying they have had such success or that acheiving it would be easy with Chinese fluency. At least from people with chinese fluency, some other people think it is all you need (someone else alluded to this as well), but thier not the ones out there doing it, and I think, just believe it will be easy for us who are. Meanwhile they are pursuing or have MBA degrees or other such business related qualifications. I will soon be meeting with a person who works in the import/export (mostly import heh) business with China so hopefully he can give me some insight into how much good knowing chinese with out another degree would do for me. Regardless though, I am still going to major in it because it is what I really enjoy and I’m sure will take me somewhere, even If I decide later on I need and would enjoy getting an MBA or some such qualifications. I know a guy who graduated from Stanford with a history degree and then six years later decided to get his MBA.
Beijing is really polluted though, thats for sure. After I came back from my trip there last summer I was hacking up lung butter for like a week as my lungs tried to clean themselves out and get acclaimated to breathing fresh MN air again. People there seemed happy to speak chinese with me, but with the ones who knew english pretty well I eventually would have to revert to speaking it in order to commnicate things do not yet have the ability to convey in Chinese. Seems like it might be the same in Taiwan.
oh and yea not being able to drink the water in Beijing is a hassle (especially when ou have to brush your teeth with bottled water) but I’ve heard if you’re gonna be there for a year you can start drinking it and your body will get used to it (though after seeing what it did to one girl who accidently drank some on the trip i’m not sure I want to ‘get used to it’). On the other hand it’s kind of a cool experience having an amenity your so used to being taken away. Made me think of a lot fo other things I take for granted and other things I have that I probably don’t need.
I’d strongly suggest you tie your language study to another skill or qualification. A quarter of the world can speak bad Mandarin, there’s nothing special in that ability.
I’d also suggest you not drink the water. Yes you may became somewhat immune to straight faecal matter, but the heavy metals and other toxins will weigh you down, eventually.
HG
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I’d strongly suggest you tie your language study to another skill or qualification. A quarter of the world can speak bad Mandarin, there’s nothing special in that ability.[/quote]Couldn’t agree more. At least if you only speak English some people may be unaware of how little you know about the industry you’re in. Remember there are a lot of young Chinese running around with quite attractive educational backgrounds and they are way better connected than you are. Instead, further your education and experience in a field in which you have some exposure or advantage. Most the people I know who are doing well in either country are already well experienced in their industry. The fact that they can speak Mandarin helps, but it’s not a major factor. Being culturally sensitive and simply able to deal with long hours and appalling living conditions are more important.
China is currently awash with starry-eyed young graduates of Mandarin language programs somewhere in the world trying to make it big in big, booming China. Many are willing to work for no pay just to get something on their CV. Want to join that crowd?
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]
I’d also suggest you not drink the water. Yes you may became somewhat immune to straight faecal matter, but the heavy metals and other toxins will weigh you down, eventually.[/quote]
The fact that you cannot just eat and drink anything on sale in China does level the cost of living in both countries. Food on the street in Taiwan is safe 99.9% of the time. I don’t eat anything in China that doesn’t come of out of some kind of modern chain store, foreign-owned restaurant or supermarket and even then I don’t trust it 100%. This is almost as expensive as Europe. Shanghai especially has way more foreign restaurants than Taipei. Huge temptation to spend your money there. In Taiwan I eat local most of the time out of choice since the food is so good. In China I eat foreign most of the time because IMO local food is neither tasty nor safe.
From my experience, personal hygiene is basically non-existent in China. Even in major cities I see less than 10% of men wash their hands after using the toilet. You need to be careful what you touch and use bacterial creams on your hands. It’s a bit tiring always thinking about this, not using your fingers to touch things, trying to keep your distance from people coughing and spitting and so on. The Taiwanese are no angels, but they are much better.
As mentioned, most Chinese cities have terrible air pollution. Bad news if you like to go out jogging etc. Somewhere on the coast would be much better, like Xiamen or Fuzhou.
Other posters have mentioned the lack of genuine social contact in China. Imagine if every Chinese person you ever met either wanted a free English lesson or to simply shove a namecard into your hand and then run off to the next laowai in the bar to do the same. Sure, some Taiwanese can be equally mercenary but it’s not nearly so bad.
Shanghai is no better a place than Taipei to learn Mandarin. A lot of Shanghai’s population does not speak Mandarin well or natively, being from the interior. Lots of people in Taipei speak Taiwanese as their mother tongue, but still speak Mandarin fluently. In general I would say the Taiwanese speak better Mandarin than they do in Shanghai. They are more articulate and have a better vocabulary. Where you might find a problem is in technical things. The Taiwanese learned everything technical from first Japan and then later the US. Technical terms are different than those used in China.
I find that the Taiwanese seem to have time to just hang out and chit chat about things and they are curious about everything. Chinese are too busy making money while the going’s good. With a Taiwanese you can basically discuss anything. With Chinese you have to stay within certain limits or the conversation either ends abruptly or gets nasty. In short, the Chinese can accept very little that doesn’t fit with their view of the world, or the one the government gave them. Sure you can still practice your Mandarin given these constraints but it’s not exactly stimulating or challenging. Hearing about China’s glorious 5,000 years of culture or how evil the Japanese are gets tedious very quickly.
In general, the way that Chinese treat each other in daily situations is nothing short of stunningly rude. It’s hard to get used to people being so damn ugly to each other for no other reason than simply being able to get away with it. The Taiwanese have far better social graces, although they are still far from perfect.
If you’re an outdoors type you should avoid Shanghai. There is nowhere to go outside of the city that is worth visiting unless you take a long train ride or get on a plane. Once you’re on a plane you may as well go to Korea or Japan. Taiwan is 60% or so covered with forested mountains and they start right on the edge of most cities. Easy day or weekend trips to the mountains for camping, hiking, river-tracing or whatever. Beijing has better access to the countryside but you still have to go a bit further to escape the crowds.
Anyway, wish you luck wherever you wind up.
And a surprising number with rather stunning CVs also, bar one point, their willingness to work for nothing.
To emphasise what redwagon has said, in the area of finance where I work it’s finance ability first and language a plus. If you have the ability in finance they can get someone to make up for your language inability for relative peanuts. Quite often the other side of the coin, the starry eyed foreign trained Chinese who works at local rates in th hope of breaking into a foreign firm.
[quote=“redwagon”]Other posters have mentioned the lack of genuine social contact in China. Imagine if every Chinese person you ever met either wanted a free English lesson or to simply shove a namecard into your hand and then run off to the next laowai in the bar to do the same. Sure, some Taiwanese can be equally mercenary but it’s not nearly so bad.
I find that the Taiwanese seem to have time to just hang out and chit chat about things and they are curious about everything. Chinese are too busy making money while the going’s good. With a Taiwanese you can basically discuss anything. With Chinese you have to stay within certain limits or the conversation either ends abruptly or gets nasty. In short, the Chinese can accept very little that doesn’t fit with their view of the world, or the one the government gave them. Sure you can still practice your Mandarin given these constraints but it’s not exactly stimulating or challenging. Hearing about China’s glorious 5,000 years of culture or how evil the Japanese are gets tedious very quickly.
In general, the way that Chinese treat each other in daily situations is nothing short of stunningly rude. It’s hard to get used to people being so damn ugly to each other for no other reason than simply being able to get away with it. The Taiwanese have far better social graces, although they are still far from perfect.[/quote]
I’m not so sure of this point, though. It used to be very difficult forming friendships with mainlanders, that’s not so the case these days. The nationalism is a drag, but they’re not all nutters. Mind you some degree of sensitivity about a one eyed education helps . . . start gently buy suggesting, for example, that maybe Vietnam wasnt silly enough to invade China and it could just be possible that since they beat America they also beat China. That sort of thing.
Ditto!
HG
To be honest, I haven’t yet met a single Chinese I thought it worthwhile to reeducate in this fashion. I just don’t see the ROI. Friendship is based in trust, and I just haven’t met any Chinese I thought trustworthy. I’m sure they are out there, I just don’t have the time or the need to go looking.
I disagree, and wonder why you think in mainland China you’ll make more local friends. [/quote]
I think that because of my own personal experience. I made dozens of close local friends when I spent a year in Beijing and a year in Nanjing. Of the four years I’ve spent in Taiwan, I’ve made exactly zero close local friends.
I thought finding a girlfriend on the mainland was just as difficult/easy as it is here in Taiwan. If anything, I’ve had less luck here, going for several years here without so much as a date.
Another major factor to consider is money, assuming the OP is a college student. When I was in Nanjing 4-5 years ago, I could teach six hours on a long Sunday afternoon and that took care of ALL my living expenses. Good luck trying to live off 6 teaching hours/week in any Taiwanese city.
Lord Lucan is exactly right about not on focusing on Chinese if you want to make a career in China. I wish someone had told me when I was 22 that I should focus entirely on doing that economics Ph.D.[/quote]
I studied Chinese for 2 and 1/2 years. It takes about 1 and 1/2 years to get to newspaper level. I would say that after 2 years of Chinese reading ability that you will be a very very marketable person whether in mainland China or Taiwan. I know that if I am fired right now, that I do not have to worry about finding a job due to my ability to read Chinese. Speaking is just halfway. Being able to read ensures employment for a very long time.[/quote][/quote]
Reading the newspaper in Chinese after only 1 and a half years study…I’d say more like 2 and a half in reality…
I spent a long time picking up Chinese and I agree with the assertion that it’s not the only or even best way to get a high paid position in China, but it will certainly give you the edge over other candidates all other things being equal.
^^^Damn I hope you guys are talking about being at newspaper level after 2 and ahlf years in Taiwan, Cause if You think it’s 2 and half years in the states, then I am the slowest chinese language learner on the planet. heeh.
[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]I’d strongly suggest you tie your language study to another skill or qualification. A quarter of the world can speak bad Mandarin, there’s nothing special in that ability.[/quote]Couldn’t agree more. At least if you only speak English some people may be unaware of how little you know about the industry you’re in. Remember there are a lot of young Chinese running around with quite attractive educational backgrounds and they are way better connected than you are. Instead, further your education and experience in a field in which you have some exposure or advantage. Most the people I know who are doing well in either country are already well experienced in their industry. The fact that they can speak Mandarin helps, but it’s not a major factor. Being culturally sensitive and simply able to deal with long hours and appalling living conditions are more important.
China is currently awash with starry-eyed young graduates of Mandarin language programs somewhere in the world trying to make it big in big, booming China. Many are willing to work for no pay just to get something on their CV. Want to join that crowd?
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]
I’d also suggest you not drink the water. Yes you may became somewhat immune to straight faecal matter, but the heavy metals and other toxins will weigh you down, eventually.[/quote]
The fact that you cannot just eat and drink anything on sale in China does level the cost of living in both countries. Food on the street in Taiwan is safe 99.9% of the time. I don’t eat anything in China that doesn’t come of out of some kind of modern chain store, foreign-owned restaurant or supermarket and even then I don’t trust it 100%. This is almost as expensive as Europe. Shanghai especially has way more foreign restaurants than Taipei. Huge temptation to spend your money there. In Taiwan I eat local most of the time out of choice since the food is so good. In China I eat foreign most of the time because IMO local food is neither tasty nor safe.
From my experience, personal hygiene is basically non-existent in China. Even in major cities I see less than 10% of men wash their hands after using the toilet. You need to be careful what you touch and use bacterial creams on your hands. It’s a bit tiring always thinking about this, not using your fingers to touch things, trying to keep your distance from people coughing and spitting and so on. The Taiwanese are no angels, but they are much better.
As mentioned, most Chinese cities have terrible air pollution. Bad news if you like to go out jogging etc. Somewhere on the coast would be much better, like Xiamen or Fuzhou.
Other posters have mentioned the lack of genuine social contact in China. Imagine if every Chinese person you ever met either wanted a free English lesson or to simply shove a namecard into your hand and then run off to the next laowai in the bar to do the same. Sure, some Taiwanese can be equally mercenary but it’s not nearly so bad.
Shanghai is no better a place than Taipei to learn Mandarin. A lot of Shanghai’s population does not speak Mandarin well or natively, being from the interior. Lots of people in Taipei speak Taiwanese as their mother tongue, but still speak Mandarin fluently. In general I would say the Taiwanese speak better Mandarin than they do in Shanghai. They are more articulate and have a better vocabulary. Where you might find a problem is in technical things. The Taiwanese learned everything technical from first Japan and then later the US. Technical terms are different than those used in China.
I find that the Taiwanese seem to have time to just hang out and chit chat about things and they are curious about everything. Chinese are too busy making money while the going’s good. With a Taiwanese you can basically discuss anything. With Chinese you have to stay within certain limits or the conversation either ends abruptly or gets nasty. In short, the Chinese can accept very little that doesn’t fit with their view of the world, or the one the government gave them. Sure you can still practice your Mandarin given these constraints but it’s not exactly stimulating or challenging. Hearing about China’s glorious 5,000 years of culture or how evil the Japanese are gets tedious very quickly.
In general, the way that Chinese treat each other in daily situations is nothing short of stunningly rude. It’s hard to get used to people being so damn ugly to each other for no other reason than simply being able to get away with it. The Taiwanese have far better social graces, although they are still far from perfect.
If you’re an outdoors type you should avoid Shanghai. There is nowhere to go outside of the city that is worth visiting unless you take a long train ride or get on a plane. Once you’re on a plane you may as well go to Korea or Japan. Taiwan is 60% or so covered with forested mountains and they start right on the edge of most cities. Easy day or weekend trips to the mountains for camping, hiking, river-tracing or whatever. Beijing has better access to the countryside but you still have to go a bit further to escape the crowds.
Anyway, wish you luck wherever you wind up.[/quote]
Thanks for the reply! Ever think about writing for Taiwanese travel brochures? You make some good points, especially about the air and Taiwans nice scenery. I already have some pretty scarred lungs from when I was born, How much of an adverse effect do you think beijing air would have on them?
People in China do seem to communicate in a different way, but it didnt seem unsociable to me.
@ Someguy:
what is it going to be? Are you making your mind? Did reading posters’ answers helped you?
Hello! Okay I have made up my mind. I am going to go to China (though haven’t quite settled on the city, I am thinking Beijing, but also considering Nanjing) . I agree with what others have said on here, I think it will be more of an ‘experience’ to study over there rather than Taiwan. Though I don’t doubt Tawain is a fun and exciting place,I think that China’s current socio-political state of affairs will be more interesting to research and write on. Anyway, all of the posts greatly helped me make my mind up. Thanks Forumosa!
[quote]Redwagon wrote:
China is currently awash with starry-eyed young graduates of Mandarin language programs somewhere in the world trying to make it big in big, booming China. Many are willing to work for no pay just to get something on their CV. Want to join that crowd?
[/quote]
But! But! The man on TV said that foreign firms are desparate for Chinese speakers!
What are the pros and cons of living in Taiwan vs living in China ?
Are there ANY pros to living in China? Everyone I’ve known who’s lived there has hated it (expats and Taiwanese alike). Can’t really say anything, since I’ve never been to Mainland China…
It’s all about increments of heavy metal poisoning.
You don’t even need to leave home for that now:
The answer’s obvious – China has pandas, Taiwan has a monument marking the Tropic of Cancer.
Plus, Britney probably wouldn’t get a visa for Taiwan on account of her drug-taking. You’ll be safe here.