Taiwan police ... Did I hear someone say "corrupt?&quot

Discussion Open Forum
21

I wasn’t talking about arrests but thank you for congratulating me.

Yet I would also like to hear some better suggestions then: what do you think how we can improve this?
Stop the offender and have a chat with him explaining him what he did wrong and then let him go off … ?

The thing is fines aren’t for making money: if people don’t break the rules there is no money made, simple as that.
And in good ol’ Germany where the traffic rules and regulations are enforced quite strictly (but fair) you may even find a cop who will give you a warning only - but you also know that for some offenses you have to pay quite a substantial amount and/or you may loose your licenses for several months and thus it encourages you to “behave”.

Mistakes can and will be made, no doubt, but most of the offenses here are due to ignorance and endanger the life of others or at least cause great inconvenience.

I am looking forward to hear some better suggestions then!

22

Fine motorists for:

  1. speeding
  2. drink driving (betel driving)
  3. reckless driving

but not noddy stuff like having your wheel sticking fractionally over a white line.

the argument is not against fines per se, but against the ludicrously uneven enforcement of the rules. too much petty stuff is enforced, 'cos the cops can fine (or bribe), but the real problems are let go.

the point is that giving policemen quotas exacerbates the problem as they try to find as many small (and easy to enforce) infringements as they can.

Performance evaluation has to be more qualitative.

And, yes, in this case, giving the guy a bit of a talking to and then letting him go on his way would have been preferrable (but even that a bit excessive).

The basic point is this: the laws are there to try and achieve a safer environment for drivers. it makes sense therefore to concentrate enforcement on those situations were the safety of drivers is most severely compromised. unfortunately, the Taiwanese have a bureaucratic mindset when it comes to laws, i.e., the law says you cannot cross the white line, so if you so much as poke a toenail over the white line, I’m gonna come down on you like a tonne of bricks son! Its ridiculous. It wastes time and energy on petty offences that would be better spent targetting the really serious crimes.

And finally, why do the Taiwanese behave this way in legal matters? Well, probably because they copy a lot of laws from Japan, who in turn copied theirs from stuff like the German civil Codes of the bleedin’ 1800s. So, yes, ultimately we do have a 200-year-old German 'stop-stepping-on-the-white-lines" mindset to thank for all this craziness.

Ye Gods.

Why is it that REALLY BAD ideas are so popular in Taiwan?

23

Finland leads the way -

canoe.ca/CNEWSWeirdNews0204/ … ng-ap.html

  • now if we couple this system to the earlier suggestion that the boys in blue get a cut then I think we are on to a real winner. The cops would get rich(er) and would only target the fat cat Benz/BWM’ers leaving the poor scooter drivers to do whatever they like - :mrgreen:

The down side being a slide in exchange rates leading to foreigners being targetted for hard currency fines … :frowning:

24

[quote=“eh?”]
The point is, if you ask police officers to supplement their salaries through “arrests” or some such, they will go for the easy targets, not the hard-to-catch big criminals. [/quote]

My favorite example of this was being pulled over every night, along with a large crowd of tiny teenage girls, at the same place by a large gang of cops with kevlar vests and M-16s.
They were officially looking for Chen Ching-Hsin, but were pulling over anyone and everyone who did NOT look anything like him… and once they were sure you were not He Who May Not Be Apprehended, they started issuing tickets for no helmets, no licenses, out of date regos… and so on. While we were sitting waiting to be processed, all the black mercs and bimmers would wail past unmolested, and the cops would poliltely look the other way.

Great PR job, even better earnings.

25

the argument is not against fines per se, but against the ludicrously uneven enforcement of the rules. too much petty stuff is enforced, 'cos the cops can fine (or bribe), but the real problems are let go.

Why too much petty stuff? Because of that one picture we see here?
And obviously the cop cannot take a bribe when using the camera. If he however stops you on the spot than it’s more likely to happen, isn’t it?

Unfortunately enforcing offences like reckless driving is much more difficult to do and to proof, requiring more manpower and expensive technology.
The cop standing at the street corner or junction may not see any such offense the whole day (well, here in Taipei he surely would … :wink: ) but that doesn’t mean he should overlook all the other offenses.

However I totally agree fines must be set according to the offense, i.e. if they endager anyone they should be higher than standing with one wheel on the white line.

Glad to see we Germans have made a good impression somewhere at least … :laughing:

26

The cops here are useless. (or worse).

Yes, they go after the small fry, as they don’t have connections. Why go after da ge, when he can create a shit load of trouble for you? No, non connected foreigners, scooter riders etc are easier prey.

that said, stopping on the line is an offense. I would pay up without moaning.

27

Hi Rascal,

I could be mistaken. Please let me know. BUT, in any case, you come off sounding like you haven’t yet been the proud owner of a scooter here in Taiwan. If this is correct, then I suggest you enrich your experience. Try, if you can, follow all the rules within the centimeter.

Actually, I’m just trying to make a point. I don’t suggest anyone ride a scooter if they don’t have too.

When you start riding your new scooter, you’ll be so proud of yourself for being such a socially responsible rider in the midst of a sea of idiots. You’ll never go too fast. You’ll never park illegally. You’ll never run red lights. You’ll always yeild to pedestrians. You’ll always tighten your strap on your helmet and make sure your mirrors are squeaky clean. You’ll even make sure you are always one centimeter before the white line …

Then you’ll get your first ticket in the mail. Who knows what for. The point is you’ll get more than one. Then you’ll get pissed and join the club. You’ll figure out that there’s nothing you can really do to avoid the tickets and that it is just a tax. You’ll start to include it in the cost of owning a scooter, budgeting a certain amount of fines per year.

You may continue to drive responsibly, but the effect such a system has on the average Taiwanese is different. Such arbitrary and oportunistic enforcement only serves to desensitize the Taiwanese to the “spirit of the law.”

Example:

Notice now since cameras went into effect how you get whiplash in a Taxi? They drive like monkeys (an insult to monkeys) until they get to a camera. Then they slam on the breaks at a camera. They know perfectly well that a cop is not going to chase them down between the cameras for speeding or wreckless driving. All they know is that they get a ticket a few meters in front of a camera.

28

And where in the world do motorists stick faithfully to the “spirit of the law”?
A Google search for “speed camera” turns up:
Hit 1. Map of where to find them (and slow down) in Britain
Hit 3. Locations in NZ
Hit 4. Yahoo Group on “speed camera action”
Hit 5. Database of location & appearance of speed cameras in Australia
Hit 6. Site selling speed camera detectors
etc.

You know the rules before you get on the road. You takes your choices. Go too fast, park illegally, whatever, but don’t moan when you get caught.

29

If this is correct, then I suggest you enrich your experience. Try, if you can, follow all the rules within the centimeter.

Correct, I do not drive a scooter but obviously those who do always have an excuse for every rule they break.
I am with Salmon on this one: you know the rules, you get caught breaking them - then pay without bitching around. This applies to every motorist, not only scooter drivers.

At least that’s what I do when I drive a car (and I have been caught before) and can’t buy myself a way out … :smiling_imp:

30

Most replies here are relating to traffic police. The problem with law enforcement runs far, far deeper than that.
I could write 10,000 words on this, but let me just say this: The police – encouraged by the media – have a pet word: crackdown.
This has the implication that illegal behavior has been allowed to either take place or has been lightly (read: ineffectively) enforced.
Law enforcement here has many of the classic characteristics of the mainland Chinese “iron rice bowl” job – a position for life irrespective of the performance of one’s duties.
Law enforcement here is riven with the dry rot of cronyism, shirking, corruption, laziness and turpitude. Crackdowns are a way for law enforcement to show the public, “Look, we really are doing a good job!” In recent years, crackdowns have been centered on drugs, drunk driving and infractions of intellectual property rights and copyrights.
Burn some dope, have a couple of weekends of traffic pullouts and a raid on a factory once every six months – it’s a dog and pony show.

There is more…so much more…

31

OK Rascal,

You have failed to address the premises upon which this thread was established and has evolved into. Instead, you’ve morphed the topic into one that covers up your former illogical statements. Let’s have a history lesson.

The real issues of this topic:

  1. Police in Taiwan are corrupt. Why?
  2. Because they are not doing what police in civilized countries attempt to do, which is “protect the peace.” Why?
  3. Because they only want to make money. And how do they do that?
  4. By focusing on enforcement on the part of the population that produces the most revenue, instead of foucusing on the part of the populartion that most contributes to a lack of peace. Why?
  5. Because it makes the most money. And who are these people?
  6. They are the most law-abiding people who generally drive in a way that presents very little threat to public peace, but are easy targets since they are generally poorer and have less connections.
  7. Therefore, no one respects the “spirit of the law” which really means no one respects the law. Which means that no one respects the arm of the law, the Taiwan police. Why?
  8. Because people find out that you get only marginally more tickets for breaking the law and a baseline amount of tickets for trying to follow the law. So why try anyway?
  9. Which only exacerbates a fundamental Chinese cultural flaw which says morality is only something that exists when someone else is looking (like a camera). I can act lawlessly as long as no one finds out.
  10. As a side note, I implied cameras are a cowardly way to enforcement, which is a personal opinion, rather that a fact based on the effectiveness of cameras. That is another subject which I might explain later.

Now let’s review some of your sentiments and sentiments you’ve agreed with:

  1. It’s about time.
  2. Damn straight crack down on them scooters. They are such a pain anyway.
  3. People should get tickets for breaking the law, no matter how tiny. How else are they going to learn?
  4. And being 2 centimeters over the white line is “sheer ignorance” or represents sheer ignorance.
  5. You shouldn’t complain when you get a ticket cause you know them laws. Just shutup and pay up.
  6. Cameras are used elsewhere, so what’s the problem with them in Taiwan? Gosh, Australia does it, and you can even look it up on the Web! Golly gee wilikers!
  7. Germany is such a perfect example of a driver’s utopia. [We could even be like Sinapore!!!]
  8. Maybe we should reward cops for corrupt behavior with bonuses.

Well, it’s sort of a grabag of random thinking that doesn’t really have much congruency with the core of the topic, but you’d make an excellent politician in a TV debate. I’ll vote for you.

Can you address “the spirit of this topic?”

32

How old are the cops we’re talking about? Most of the young blokes I’ve spoken too seem to be pretty good blokes. The older cops, wee. But that’s the same as everywhere right? In Australia, I grew up with Asian kids, yet my a generation or two earlier didn’t. Point being, whenever I have a prob with the boys in blue, not often at that 8) , I speak with the boys who can talk the talk :laughing:

33

It’s good to see Taiwanese police directing their attention to the important crimes afflicting modern Taiwanese society, like this non-conformist four-inch line overstepper here. The sooner this sort of scum are locked up the better. How’s any self-respecting rapist, murderer or drug pusher supposed to feel safe with animals like this on the loose ? Hanging’s too good for them. Etc.

34

I have to agree with wolf on the circling thing. The helmet looks real, but it’s my guess its got a dark visor on it or it’s not strapped up. From the looks of the photo I’d say it’s got chunks taken out of it too. The photo has “H” written on it … let me see, must stand for “He is over the white line” … right?
So galley gong, where did you get the photo? Is it a photo of you or is the guy one of your mates? [/b]

35

I consider myself a respectful driver in the midst of complete disrespect for human life. My only tickets have come from “honest mistakes,” where there was ambiguity or extreme legalism like this. There have been times when I deserve a ticket, but no cop would dare get on his bike and chase me down to give me a ticket.

So you’re whining because you got a ticket from a teeny tiny mistake, but you’re bragging you didn’t get caught when you really deserve it?

They are the most law-abiding people who generally drive in a way that presents very little threat to public peace, but are easy targets since they are generally poorer and have less connections.

This just proves that how many people (locals and foreigners) think that it’s OK to break a law just because it’s just a tiny mistake and the police should focus only on big events. Do you know how many citizens are exactly complaining that the police only focus on big crimes (to boost their performance and impress the media) and neglect small theft or things teeny tiny?) If you don’t think you cross the line, then don’t pay the fine yet, go to the traffic court and argue this in front of the judge. But don’t whine here asking cops to stop fining small wrongdoing.

Holger Nygaard wrote:
non connected foreigners, scooter riders etc are easier prey.

This is not too fair either to say this. I bet many foreigners have the experience: there are times when they are pulled over by the police, the police end up just waving their hands telling them to go just because these policemen find the targets being pulled over are foreigners.

But instead, this new trend of using a camera is just a way to make more money for little violations that are so innocent. It is designed to make money from basically law-abiding citizens.

You’ve got to be joking!! Just because a person gets caught by a camera, he is a victim of a cowardly method of law enforcement? Excuse my ignorance, but how can a person who is an innocent law-abiding citizen turn out caught breaking the law by a camera? Hello, isn’t it because that person happens to be breaking the law?

I’ll say using camera is not a so stupid idea, especially when the police have to deal with a law-breaker who insists he has not done anything wrong. If they don’t have a powerful proof for a person’s law-breaking behavior(such as photos), how can they convict him even if he’s brought to court? In the traffic court, photos can save a lot of time for the two parties’ debate.

Indeed, many drivers or scooter riders know exactly where there may be cameras installed, so they pretend to be law-abiding when they are near cameras but speed or make illegal turns again when there are no cameras nearby. Many road users don’t get caught every time they break the traffic rules, but this cannot justify one’s wrongdoings once he gets caught. And I’ll think by fining scooter riders who don’t consider rules like crossing lines important, people may start to learn to take those rules serious.

Are some cops corruptive? Yes. Do some dirty cops try to make more money by giving out traffic tickets? Yes. Did you cross the box line according to the picture you provide? You can argue about it, but don’t tell the cops to leave small cases alone, that’s not the sprit of the law!!!

I’m sometimes amazed by foreigners coming from a “civilized world”. If a Taiwanese goes to, say USA, and gets caught by a cop when he drives on the street, and doesn’t stop in front of a “stop” sign (even though there’s no single pedestrian or car around), he will still think “wow, this is a very law-abiding country, they take traffic rules very serious!!” and pays up the fine without a second word. But a foreigner in Taiwan who abides laws in his home country and gets caught in Taiwan probably would think: “Hum, this is a corruptive country, with corruptive policemen and laws not worth abiding.”

36

Notice how every debate on Taiwan or China turns into a Chinese v. Foreigners debate ? Like people in the West aren’t facing the exact same issues…

37

[quote=“galley gong”]
9. Which only exacerbates a fundamental Chinese cultural flaw which says morality is only something that exists when someone else is looking (like a camera). I can act lawlessly as long as no one finds out.[/quote]

as opposed to the fundamental Judeo-Christian cultural flaw that morality is only something that exists when it’s financially lucrative (why follow the law when you only get mariginally more tickets for breaking it anyway?)? :unamused:

38

Well, foreigners may be wawed on when stopped by the police. However no-one ever waved me over, so I don’t speak from personal experience here.

What I do know is that you end up getting the blame if something involving money. You are foreign, so they assume that you have more money. The local guy may know someone, so the police (even the young guys) might not be willing to take your side. As a matter of fact they might just refuse to do anything.

Young cops in general are nice people. I once spend a late night with 5-6 on-duty uniformed cops in a KTV, drinking beer, ganbei shots of gaoliang, singing and smoking. They suddenly got a call, so 2 of the most lubricated guys took off in order to handle the matter. They were rather pissed by the time they left.

Not too bad. The best thing was that the tab for our partying got picked up by the owner of the KTV. :mrgreen:

39

What rubbish, Flipper.

Its always seen as somehow 'cool" to slag off the West. However, let’s face it, the West has been far more successful at building free, civilised, and wealthy societies. The East has only “caught up” by adopting many of the features of the West.

In this case, i.e., rules and laws, the main difference between the west and the East is this:

  1. In the East, individual freedom is bounded by responsibility to the group. That group tends to be quite small: neighbourhood, extended family, village, etc.

  2. In the West, individual freedom is coupled with individual responsibility and the need to treat ALL other individuals equally, i.e., “do unto others as you would have done to yourself.”

Somewhat paradoxically, then, the fact that responsibility is an “individual’s responsibility” in the West, whereas it is a “group responsibility” in the East, leads to actions by individuals in the West that take a greater account of the social good. Individual’s actions in the East take a much narrower view.

Hence, in the East - police forces that regularly skim off the top, and are corrupt, or that like to control and profit from their own little neighbourhoods. This philosophical difference also makes for laws in the East that are likely to give far less allowance to individual responsibility and are therefore too prescriptive, inflexible, and yes, downright petty.

40

It is not me or one of my mates. It is a forward I received. So, yes, in that regard I have no “proof” that the citation is for being over the white line, nor can I prove that the photo wasn’t doctored. One has to be careful on the Internet.

But it still makes for a lively discussion, because many of us have run into this kind of situation before, whether it be with an employer, at the tax office, getting a ticket, etc.

That is a rather interesting leap in inference. I simply acknowledged that there are times when I admit my behaviour is clearly lawless. I don’t see how that is “bragging.”

That really isn’t brought up here in this thread. Another interesting leap in inference. This heart of this thread is about the corruption of the police becuase they are not focused on what police are supposed to do: protect the peace; and therefore decrease peoples’ concept of social responsibility (spirit of the law). I haven’t seen an argument yet in this thread that supports that it is “OK to break the law.”