Taiwan population decline

[BiggusDickus]

@TT

@BiggusDickus

Am I odd in finding paying people to breed a tad distasteful?

Not so bad on a policy level, on an individual level bit different

In other words, sex for cash is ok if the government is paying

Could I get a tax rebate?

[TT]

Uh, do you usually get a receipt?

[Explant]

@BiggusDickus

Am I odd in finding paying people to breed a tad distasteful?

When the solution is so obvious, but politically unacceptable.

Nope, I have been on that bandwagon for a long time. It’s gross!

[Explant]

@TT

Uh, do you usually get a receipt?

Yes, but not in a tax deductible way as it’s no business. The government sends you money. Literally. There are bank records.

@TT

@BiggusDickus

Am I odd in finding paying people to breed a tad distasteful?

Not so bad on a policy level, on an individual level bit different

In other words, sex for cash is ok if the government is paying

Sadly, ex President Ma has proven this beyond any doubt. Other governments also basically vote buy and call it something else. Like a tax rebate

Double standards don’t look good in history.

[Brianjones]

That is only for the first 3 years , good increase but not much difference really overall.
They should give a large amount of child benefit or much bigger tax rebate if they want more kids . More kids means more taxpayers usually anyway.

[Explant]

@Brianjones

That is only for the first 3 years , good increase but not much difference really overall.
They should give a large amount of child benefit or much bigger tax rebate if they want more kids . More kids means more taxpayers usually anyway.

Aside form the issues and risks involved with paying people for babies (vs. Supporting families, a different thing) and the types of baby makers involved in said brackets…what about immigration? Creates a net gain on population, no 18 year wait times for babies to become work force wntities (probably more like mid 20s already in Taiwan, but I digress) and they get their bonus of promoting Taiwan like they already attempt via schooling bribes. I mean scholarships.

It could be done so much better. The pay for birthing thing we saw last decade is a disaster Taiwan could be getting better results with more positive schemes AND still wasting taxpayer money like they seem to be so addicted to. It’s a head scratcher, to be sure!

Sorry, that was the long way to avoid dropping the F bomb and the R word.

[papertowel]

@Explant

what about immigration?

The only immigrants they can bring in en masse right now is factory workers and helpers. I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, but they won’t offset the population issue as they don’t really tend to integrate into the country. Taiwan could try to target professionals but we’d have to become a primarily English speaking country to pull that off.

[Explant]

@papertowel

@Explant

what about immigration?

The only immigrants they can bring in en masse right now is factory workers and helpers. I’ve mentioned this elsewhere, but they won’t offset the population issue as they don’t really tend to integrate into the country. Taiwan could try to target professionals but we’d have to become a primarily English speaking country to pull that off.

I slightly disagree. It’s not can. It’s want to.

They could easily make Taiwan attractive to people to immigrate here. The fact they just get female Chinese and Vietnamese (on scale)is telling of their policy…which needs a redo.

[Brianjones]

95.9% of naturalised immigrants were actually females from South East Asia and China. Something like 70% are from Vietnam.

SHOULD WE CALL IT THE ‘POOR ASIAN WOMEN ONLY’ POLICY?

Very few Chinese have immigrated in recent years. Probably more HongKongers and Malaysians though.

Taiwan makes it easy to come to work here a while but still very difficult for vast majority of migrants/immigrants to settle long term, access government benefits and have kids. As we know they don’t even give disability benefit to permanent residents.

Over 70% of naturalised citizens from one country

What you are describing would explain why some people might hook up. It is not, however, the basis of a coherent immigration policy. To test this out, ask yourself: is the immigration/naturalization process of YOUR country based on which women men from the dominant ethno-racial group consider to be “cute”? I didn’t think so. To be fair, authorities in the Tsai government are well aware of the limits of the old system (i.e. naturalization based on marriage to citizens alone) and some of them…

[Explant]

@Brianjones

HongKongers and Malaysians

Ya, so, Chinese

Sorry, had too that’s a joke. Well, it’s half a joke.

[Brianjones]

Well they are basically coming in as Chinese so nothing controversial about that statement.

[afterspivak]

@TT

sex for cash is ok if the government is paying

Sounds like a banging deal!

Guy

[RickRooney]

Yea, even stopping those with 10 houses (or 100+ such as hou you yi) from collecting more or taxing those house collectors would be seen as such. If you want to know how short sighted their vision is and fucked the outlook of the country is look no further than the bent old gits up guys up for election.

[Gain]

@finley

My hunch is that younger people aren’t having kids because they’re burdened by the sheer Sisyphean grunt-work that lies ahead of them to even get a roof over their heads. The generation that was gifted houses by their parents (who, in turn, just struck lucky by virtue of being in the right place at the right time) are already in their 30s, and their families are ‘locked in’ - they’ve had all the kids that they want to have or can have.

Of course there are other factors - the younger generation don’t seem able to relate to each other socially and have a much lower tolerance for the ordinary hardships of life. But having a secure home seems to be a human prerequisite for having kids.

That is simply not true. Countries with even worse housing situation have high birth rates (Israel) and countries with great housing have extremely low birth rates (Finland). The reality is housing has nothing do with natality. People are just using housing as an excuse.

Finland witnesses record-low birthrate but rising immigration

Over the past 12 months, the total fertility rate dropped to 1.28, down from 1.87 in 2010 and 1.35 in 2019, the number-crunching agency said in a press release on Thursday.

Danielle Kubes: The truth behind Israel's curiously high fertility rate

Israel’s fertility rate is 2.9, which is nearly double’s Canada’s fertility rate of 1.5. Few other countries in the OECD even reached replacement level fertility. Israel’s fertility rates are more closely aligned with its Middle Eastern neighbours — Jordan, Syria and Egypt — but it’s an outlier among developed countries with advanced economies, educated populations and high female workforce participation.

The real story here is the high birth rate of traditional and secular Jewish couples in Israel, who make up most of the country. Observant Jews (religious but not ultra-Orthodox) have an average of four children, while secular women have an average of two.

Only RELIGION increases birth rates, and very specific ones (Islam, Judaism, Mormonism and some other wacky religions) at that. Import hundreds of thousands of migrants from the Middle East like European countries do, fertility rate would immediately increase in Taiwan.

[TT]

@Gain

The reality is housing has nothing do with natality. People are just using housing as an excuse.

Only RELIGION increases birth rates, and very specific ones (Islam, Judaism, Mormonism and some other wacky religions) at that

The reality is that it is complex. Values, influenced by religion, yes is an important part of the picture; it can’t be denied that the current year picure of familial values on Taiwan plays a role, but this is incredibly difficult -if not impossible- to alter through policy. I know women who don’t want to marry their boyfriends because of his parent’s expectations, and the government can’t change this.

But for those who are married or otherwise in committed relationships, of course financials play a role. If people can barely afford the coffins they are living in, where is the incentive to make more people?

Obviously, more affordable housing isn’t a magic bullet to Taiwan’s present demographic difficulties. Just as obviously, the fiscal challenge of having a larger home to accommodate more people -in addition to other expenses- plays a role.

You are correct that having more immigrants from countries that value children would help. And having affordable housing is part of the equation to attract them.

[ChewDawg]

@TT

If people can barely afford the coffins they are living in, where is the incentive to make more people?

I wouldn’t sell my seed for less than a million dollars a shot. The erudition and IQ that accompanies it. Worth more than heroin and platinum.

It ain’t meant for people that live in coffins or ghettos.

[TT]

@ChewDawg

I wouldn’t sell my seed for less than a million dollars a shot

I would, NTD or otherwise. Do you know any brokers at that level?

[Gain]

@TT

You are correct that having more immigrants from countries that value children would help. And having affordable housing is part of the equation to attract them.

Right, such as Canada and the United Kingdom - two countries known for the affordable housing.

[TT]

The concept of complexity is not simple, but not exactly difficult. There are other reasons why Canada and the UK are considered more attractive destinations than Taiwan. Think about it, can you come up with one or two?

[QuaSaShao]

Speaking as a breeder what stopped us from having more children in Taiwan is the combined cost of housing and private international schooling. We own our apartment but would have needed more space. It’s surprising to me how many of my wife’s friends are childless and determined to stay that way because of affordability constraints.