Taiwan president race darkened by spying charges

Taiwan president race darkened by spying charges

[i]"The National Security Council acknowledged last month’s meeting with the Investigations Bureau, but denied that it received any campaign intelligence from Bureau officials, or that any such intelligence was passed to Ma.

The Investigations Bureau said that it followed the activities of presidential candidates in line with its mandate to provide them physical protection, but was in no way involved with collecting political intelligence."[/i]

Hi Taiwan…welcome to the world of executive protection for VIPs…lol!

Why do I read these things and not find the allegations shocking? Like I expect this sort of thing. That is not good.

Trouble with something like this is, that it would be very hard to prove unless there is official communication – stating the bloody obvious.

Personally I hope it is not true, it really undermines the democracy here in Taiwan.

Back home it is SOP. sigh

OK, my take on this, based on my personal background, is this.

  1. Its political season - any and all things will be used to taint the “other party.”

  2. All Presidential candidates are assigned security teams to “protect” them while on the campaign trail.

  3. There must be coordination of these teams;especially given the small size of Taiwan and the rapidity of transport to various areas here. The members of each team must constantly alert the leaders of the ‘other’ team as to where they are and where they plan to go next. This is simple and mandatory SOP for Executive Protection.

  4. Each night a review/debrief of the days activity is held and reported to headquarters. This will include all commo in & out by each team.

  5. Some monkey nut has taken this very standard operating technique and decided to run with it for a "NEW SENSATIONAL STORY!..of the day.

Thats my take of this crap…but…hey…Welcome to Taiwan…Let Your paranoia run as free as the wind!

Tainan Cowboy’s explanation does not fly; it fails to address two important points: (1) Why would a security detail need to report on not just the meetings and schedules but also the number of votes at stake. This detail was not just reported in Taipei Times but was also mentioned in AP’s wire and by BBC. His explanation may address the “monitoring” of Ms. Tsai’s travelling itinerary but it does not address the reporting on the number of votes at stake. (2) There is also the issue of jurisdictional overreach by the agency in question, the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau. As noted in University of Nottingham’s blog series on the election, according to the governing Regulation, the security detail lies with the National Security Bureau and not with the the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau. [See nottspolitics.org/2012/01/03/mas-watergate/.].

khlee -
Good points. Let me venture my guesses.

Votes -
I see no ‘conspiracy’ here. Size of a district and # of registered voters (the potential of the electorate) may well be a common feature of each and every area/district. This might well be incorporated into the demographic chart for each area/district.
Ex: Candidate ‘A’ , family book population 2500 w/ 1850 registered voters on family books, will be in District XYA today from 0900 till 0945.
I think it is reasonably sound for campaign managers to want their candidate to ‘meet & greet’ as many potential voters as possible. If this demographic is available, IMO, they would be derelict in not taking advantage of this ‘free’ information. Just a guess.

Jurisdictional Over-reach -
This is Taiwan. Remember the 2004 19 April Scandal?
Frankly, security for all Presidential candidates will not be subject to restriction. Security will be “top down” controlled. Can you imagine the “goat-f*ck” involved in leaving security matters to each individual district/county/city/township here on Taiwan?
A nightmare of the worst imaginable.
Respectfully - the good folks at the University of Nottingham are talking out of their ivy covered asses.

My :2cents: …nothing more - nothing less.

Appreciate the feed-back.

Are they tapping each other’s phones? Are they hacking official websites/email accounts/social network profiles? That’s spying to me.

Reporting on known factors, even if the other parties’, I think that’s more intelligence gathering. I really do not like the professionalism of the security corps be called into question, especially in a charged environment as close to elections, and with teh precedent of bulletgates for this season.

Probably what happened is a group of KMT sympathisers within the local investigative branch decided to ‘help out’ , it is unlikely to be officially sanctioned. Politics in Taiwan is just constant recrimination against the other side and it gets very tiring, at least this year the frenzy of electioneering has been quite muted compared to previous elections.

First of all it’s good to remember that this wasn’t started by the DPP but by an article in Next Magazine, which is hardly a pro-green outlet.

I’m surprised you don’t see this as a problem. While I agree that it may not have been sanctioned from the top, that does not make it less worrying that agencies will just ramp up authoritarian era practices to curry favor. Repeatedly through this election we have seen high level officials and bureaucrats stumping for Ma in whatever way they can. It’s illegal, unethical and is rolling back a lot of the advances in neutrality that were won when CSB was in power. Given this is also coming on the back of a scandal involving forgery to discredit Tsai I don’t think it should be so easily dismissed.

Since the KMT regained the presidency we have seen a lot of slipping back to the notion that the party is the state, and if you work for the government you are working for the KMT and not Taiwan. That’s a bad trend.

Well yes it’s a problem but I just have lower expectations of people here, you could say I am a bit jaded with it all. I don’t think they will go too overboard, simply because Tsai has a very good chance of winning, wouldn’t be very clever of them would it?

First of all it’s good to remember that this wasn’t started by the DPP but by an article in Next Magazine, which is hardly a pro-green outlet.
[/quote]

True, but they could have been fed the story by Greenies; that’s at least a possibility.

Could it be a true case of abuse of power? Yes

Could it be a smear job? Yes

Will we ever find out? I doubt it.

[quote=“BigJohn”]

True, but they could have been fed the story by Greenies; that’s at least a possibility.

.[/quote]

Or they could have made it up to sell a bunch of magazines.

I have a general negative impression of Next, but I remember they do publish a fair amount of serious political stuff. What’s Next’s record in this sort of thing? Political exposes I mean.

Next is owned by a HK tycoon who is no friend of the PRC government, I get the impression that they are far more neutral than the local rags and also a lot more clued in commercially.

Slipping backwards?! Fellas, I can’t comment on phone tapping in the LTH era and before that, but during the CSB era, it was standard operating procedure for everyone’s phone to be tapped if you were involved with the government and/or the media down to common reporters regardless if they were reporting on politics or not. It’s understood that anyone who can do anything in Taiwan will have their phone tapped. People don’t even get upset about it if they understand how far reaching it is.

When I see these reports about how Taiwan is slipping back into an authoritarian era, it makes me wonder because the methods used by the CSB government compromise and sometimes control the media was so outrightly authoritarian (no link because it happens behind the scenes) that to me it was understood that Taiwan was a pseudo democratic authoritarian government regardless of which party or person is in government. LTH apparently did his share of trying to sway the media to go his way, but the CSB government was more notorious for using strong-arm tactics to get the media in order.

Then Ma gets elected and stories start getting put out about the authoritarian KMT government and what they are doing. But in comparison to what was happening before, it’s like a “5” compared to a “10” for totally authoritarian. I would give the CSB government a 9 out of 10 for authoritarian behavior towards the media and other person in their way. Based on reports I’ve seen of the Ma government, it’s like a doggie biscuit compared to getting whipped by a belt. If you have a dog or have had a dog, you can get it to listen to you by offering him a biscuit after he/she behaves according to your wishes. That’s the more civilized way to get a dog to behave. Or you can whip it with a belt into submission.

The difference of course is, we are getting reports of doggie biscuits in the post CSB era, and its getting out to the Western world which is lowering Taiwan’s rankings in terms of media freedom and democratic standing.

I remember talking to pan blue people back in the good old CSB days and they were so beaten down by that government, that they had almost no will to fight back in any way. They don’t know how to use English language media to fight back against an authoritarian government or if they do, it was not being taken seriously or because the Western media was biased against the KMT because they are on “mainland China’s” side and the good old DPP led by ever-democratic Chen Shui-Bian whose wife was nearly killed by a KMT assassin would never think of doing such things! Just not in his character!

First of all it’s good to remember that this wasn’t started by the DPP but by an article in Next Magazine, which is hardly a pro-green outlet.

I’m surprised you don’t see this as a problem. While I agree that it may not have been sanctioned from the top, that does not make it less worrying that agencies will just ramp up authoritarian era practices to curry favor. Repeatedly through this election we have seen high level officials and bureaucrats stumping for Ma in whatever way they can. It’s illegal, unethical and is rolling back a lot of the advances in neutrality that were won when CSB was in power. Given this is also coming on the back of a scandal involving forgery to discredit Tsai I don’t think it should be so easily dismissed.

Since the KMT regained the presidency we have seen a lot of slipping back to the notion that the party is the state, and if you work for the government you are working for the KMT and not Taiwan. That’s a bad trend.[/quote]

I cannot agree with some of the sentiments expressed above. I agree that there probably isn’t a conspiracy. Certainly, without persuasive evidence of President Ma’s involvement, it is not a charge to be thrown. Nonetheless, there remains the issue of administrative neutrality of government agencies. State agencies should not be working on behalf of the ruling party to gather election data for them - that’s what the political party’s own machinery is for! A state agency, which is supposed to be neutral, monitoring and analyzing the electorates’ voting intentions on behalf of a political party, should be of some concern to the public, particularly given Taiwan’s own history. Reading the agencies’ own press releases, it does not appear that the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau deny that it did what was alleged. Rather, the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau is trying to justify its actions [See mjib.gov.tw/cgi-bin/Message/ … /MsgCenter].

I also cannot agree with the position that security operations for the candidates are somehow not above scrutiny. The Regulation clearly states that the protection of presidential and vice-presidential candidates are under the overall the jurisdiction of the National Security Bureau ( Section 2 - 總統、副總統候選人 (以下簡稱候選人) 之安全維護工作 (以下簡稱安維工作) ,由國家安全局特種勤務指揮中心 (以下簡稱特勤中心) 統籌). The NSB can (I am reading 並, per translation as: “and or also”) cooperate with (again, I am reading 協同, per translation, as: "to work in coordination with) other security bodies, of which the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau is one but as indicated by the University of Nottingham blog, the Ministry of Justice Investigation Bureau appeared to have bypassed the normal channel of communication.

Even if there was proper delegation of powers, the Investigation Bureau’s actions still raises the issue of administrative neutrality.

The Ministry justifies the monitoring and analysis of voter intention as follows: "“對於媒體質疑調查員估票的作法是否妥當,在此特別說明,對選舉安全情勢評估是本局長久以來的作法,其最主要的目的在於,如果同選區兩組候選人勢均力敵,則危安狀況發生的機率將遠高於實力懸殊的選區,其危安等級也將隨之提升,因此這是本局工作範圍的一環”

As translated by Google: “For the media questioned the investigators assessed the appropriateness of the practice of voting in this particular note, the security situation on the election assessment is a long-standing practice of the Council, its main purpose is that if two candidates are evenly matched with the constituency, the security risk status occur the probability will be much higher than the strength of the disparity in selection, and its danger level will rise with security, so this is part of the scope of work of this Council.”

I don’t find the Bureau’s explanation persuasive. There are three weaknesses with the Bureau’s explanation. In the first place, there is nothing in the governing Regulation to indicate that monitoring and analyzing the electorates’ voting intention is somehow within the purview of the duties or responsibilities of these agencies. Section 3 of the Regulation, which sets out the duties and responsibilities of the agencies, reads:

安維工作之編組及其任務如下:
一、基本編組:負責候選人人身安維工作。(I read this, per interpretation, as: "Basic Group: Responsible for maintaining Candidate safety)
二、地區編組:協助候選人人身安維工作。(I read this, per interpretation, as: "Area Group: Assist with Candidate safety), and
三、警察機關:負責候選人住居所、蒞臨場所及行進間之安維工作。(I read this, per interpretation, as: "Policing agencies: Responsible for providing safety maintenance to Candidates with respect to their residence, site safety during candidate visits and marches).

I freely admit that I am partisan towards the DPP but I cannot see how, even under the most generous interpretation, that monitoring and analzying electorates’ intended voting behaviour contribute in any meaningful way to the above prescribed duties and responsibilities.

Secondly, the Investigation Bureau’s logic that the risk of violence or danger is greatest in areas where the election are most tightly contested does not comport with past incidents: President Chen was shot in Tainan (not exactly a pan-Blue area) while Lien Chan’s son (campaigning for a pan-Blue candidate) was shot in Taipei County (not exactly a pan-Green area).

Lastly, the Investigation Bureau’s logic is flawed by not considering the obvious - Taiwan is not exactly that big and the very simple fact is that people can and do travel to events and gatherings outside their hometown.

The bureau’s explanation, to me at least, appears to be grasping at straws.

Frankly I don’t have a problem with government agencies thinking “outside the box” when their job is to protect presidential candidates. In that line of work you have to be creative, resourceful, and be one-step ahead of potential criminals.

For me, the bottom line is this, is Ma directly implicated in this? Did he give orders to spy on rival candidates? Is there evidence that Ma is directly involved? If the DPP is going to make this out to be some kind of Watergate-like scandal, they better have the smoking gun evidence or else they should STFU becuase they’re just blowing this up as an election tactic.

[quote=“bohica”]Frankly I don’t have a problem with government agencies thinking “outside the box” when their job is to protect presidential candidates. In that line of work you have to be creative, resourceful, and be one-step ahead of potential criminals.

For me, the bottom line is this, is Ma directly implicated in this? Did he give orders to spy on rival candidates? Is there evidence that Ma is directly involved? If the DPP is going to make this out to be some kind of Watergate-like scandal, they better have the smoking gun evidence or else they should STFU becuase they’re just blowing this up as an election tactic.[/quote]

The bottom line is this is an issue the public doesn’t like: incumbents abusing the intelligence system. Ma promised to do something about it when elected and obviously hasn’t. This is his admin that the allegations are directed at. The scandal is breaking on his watch and he holds responsibility regardless of whether he is involved personally or whether this has been happening for donkey’s ages (Think Hurricane Katrina: multiple administrations had underfunded dike protections but the disaster happened under Bush’s watch and he bore ultimate responsibility.)

Ma is also responsible for what comes next. If he was not involved then he needs to make sure that such a thing never happens again. So far we have seen nothing but lip service.

Btw, we already have the smoking gun of forgery done to discredit Tsai. That there’s no serious investigation into that suggests there won’t be into this either.

Re:President Ma and the security issue, there is no “scandal” other than the one being manufactured for political gain.

Lets keep that fact in mind.

I think good idea someone spying on candidates.
Because all candidates corruption too much.
Also maybe some candidate maybe make plan make a fake assassination.
It happen before in Taiwan.
Or maybe even someone make a real assassination!
It happen, too, but not day before election.

As far as I’m concerned, considering the last DPP President faked food poisoning AND probably faked a gunshot wound, anything Tsai claims is not worth an investigation.

“This is worse than Watergate,”. :astonished: I mean, how wrong could you possibly be?? :loco:

MODERATOR’S NOTE: This post has been edited to remove a personal insult. Please do not insult other posters. Thanks! BigJohn