Taiwan vs. Japan!?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

Hello,

I’m currently living in Japan (Kyoto). It’s okay in a lot of ways, but I’m thinking of moving to Taiwan for a number of reasons:

  • I love studying (Mandarin) Chinese. The grammar seems pretty straightforward and there’s no keigo (mindless, formulaic polite speech) like they have here (afaik, anyway…).

• It’s impossible to “be accepted” here. I’ve been here for a few years now but, as you may know if you know anything about this place, foreigners always have outsider status. No-one ever encourages you to stay, they only ask when you will go “home”.

• Believe it or not, I don’t get a chance to use (or encouragement to use) Japanese. I teach English all day (at different jobs) and when I go out, the only people that attempt to overcome their overwhelming shyness barrier want to speak English. If I force 'em to speak Japanese, they won’t correct my errors. My years of study seem like a waste of time.

  • It’s effing cold here in the winter and crazy humid in the summer. Houses don’t have indoor heating or cooling, only expensive units aimed at a small part of the room.

So, I have a few questions for the long-termers / those in the know:

• If I move to Taiwan, will I actually have a chance / encouragement to use any Chinese I have learned? I have read a lot of posts here saying that a lot of people try to get you to only speak English… what do you think?

• I have been to China, and loved a lot of things about it but the pollution and the spitting were killer so I decided not to move there - how does Taiwan fare in this regard?

• According to Wikipedia, “The northern part of the island has a rainy season that lasts from January through late March during the northeast monsoon, and experiences meiyu in May. The entire island experiences hot, humid weather from June through September. The middle and southern parts of the island do not have an extended monsoon season during the winter months. Natural hazards such as typhoons and earthquakes are common in the region.” So, it sounds just like Japan, but warmer. I love tropical weather! Is the humidity unbearable, though?

  • As far as work, I currently work from 3-6 different jobs (teaching English, natch). I usually teach adults, sometimes business English. I work from 3-6 hours a day, almost every day. Can I get a similar (or better!) situation in Taiwan? I don’t want to teach kids if I don’t have to.

• I saw a doc about foreigners living in China, and their living conditions were not exactly top-notch. This place here in Kyoto ain’t exactly the Ritz (2-3 Twinkie-sized cockroaches per year), but there’s at least a modicum of privacy and a reasonable amount of space.

• It seems that, due to the high number of foreigners there, there is an availability of foreign food? There are 3 “foreign” food shops here in Kyoto, so I can buy chili, beans, Mexican, etc. There are similar shops in Taipei, right? 80% of the time Chinese (or Japanese) food is ok, but I need some spaghetti or whatever once in a while.

Anything else? Suggestions, comments, criticisms, opinions, etc. welcomed.

2

[quote=“digitiger”]

• If I move to Taiwan, will I actually have a chance / encouragement to use any Chinese I have learned? I have read a lot of posts here saying that a lot of people try to get you to only speak English… what do you think?

• I have been to China, and loved a lot of things about it but the pollution and the spitting were killer so I decided not to move there - how does Taiwan fare in this regard?

• According to Wikipedia, “The northern part of the island has a rainy season that lasts from January through late March during the northeast monsoon, and experiences meiyu in May. The entire island experiences hot, humid weather from June through September. The middle and southern parts of the island do not have an extended monsoon season during the winter months. Natural hazards such as typhoons and earthquakes are common in the region.” So, it sounds just like Japan, but warmer. I love tropical weather! Is the humidity unbearable, though?

  • As far as work, I currently work from 3-6 different jobs (teaching English, natch). I usually teach adults, sometimes business English. I work from 3-6 hours a day, almost every day. Can I get a similar (or better!) situation in Taiwan? I don’t want to teach kids if I don’t have to.

• I saw a doc about foreigners living in China, and their living conditions were not exactly top-notch. This place here in Kyoto ain’t exactly the Ritz (2-3 Twinkie-sized cockroaches per year), but there’s at least a modicum of privacy and a reasonable amount of space.

• It seems that, due to the high number of foreigners there, there is an availability of foreign food? There are 3 “foreign” food shops here in Kyoto, so I can buy chili, beans, Mexican, etc. There are similar shops in Taipei, right? 80% of the time Chinese (or Japanese) food is ok, but I need some spaghetti or whatever once in a while.

Anything else? Suggestions, comments, criticisms, opinions, etc. welcomed.[/quote]

1 － I use my chinese on a daily basis here, and quite extensively too. Sure, You’ll have your obvious assortment of folk speaking English to you, though most of them will switch to Chinese if you speak it with them. Odd is the person who will refuse to use Chinese with you if you offer it up. As to whether or not they will correct you however, that all depends on how comfortable they feel with you I believe :slight_smile:

2 - I spent some time in China as well, and can comment on this. While I was in Sichuan (supposedly a relatively clean place), I counted myself lucky to see blue skies more than once a week. In Taiwan, so long as it is not raining, I can always see the sky, and I don’t feel choked by smog. Yes, it has it’s problems, but is a hundred times cleaner than China. Spitting is limited to Betel nut chewers, and your average person will not hawk those giant nasty loogies like they love to do in China

3 - As wikipedia said, the northern part of Taiwan does indeed get it’s fair share for rain, and can get down to 8-10 degrees in the winter time, but is pretty nice in the summer I think. The southern part of the island is basically nice year round, only seeing rain perhaps in the late spring or some times in the summer months.

4 - Your hours will still be broken up here. You’ll actually have more stable hours if you teach children however. I teach adults as well, and get bounced all over the place (though with only 1 employer, which is nice I suppose)

5 - Living spaces are much larger here than what you’re describing! Air conditioners are almost a given in most places as well. Rural parts of taiwan can be very easy to rent a large place for a low cost. Heck, anywhere outside of Taipei has such situations. Taipei, however, isn’t all that bad - you can still get an alright space without paying an arm and a leg. Perhaps just a kidney, but they’re overrated anyways.

6 - Foreign food is extremely common here, though is often ‘taiwanized’ to some extent. 'Tis still very available however!

All in all, from what you described, I think you will enjoy coming to Taiwan quite a bit! It’s a very cozy living situation, the people are very welcoming and accepting, and the cost of living is infinitely cheaper than Japan (from what I hear).

3

One thing worth adding: Taiwan can be a good place to practice your Japanese, too. Lots of people here speak passable to excellent Japanese, and they’re generally quite friendly and willing to chat.

4

• If I move to Taiwan, will I actually have a chance / encouragement to use any Chinese I have learned? I have read a lot of posts here saying that a lot of people try to get you to only speak English… what do you think?
Yes IME they are very encouraging of foreigners trying to speak Chinese. It’s funny some of them even think it’s cute … and I guarantee you I haven’t been called “cute” by anyone else since like the age of 3. :wink:

• I have been to China, and loved a lot of things about it but the pollution and the spitting were killer so I decided not to move there - how does Taiwan fare in this regard?
Pollution not great, but better than it was ten years ago (because of the good subway system, mostly). But in terms of manners and politeness it’s much more civilized than China. Not what you’re used to in Japan of course but it doesn’t feel like “10 million peasants living in a city” they way Chinese cities can.

• According to Wikipedia, “The northern part of the island has a rainy season that lasts from January through late March during the northeast monsoon, and experiences meiyu in May. The entire island experiences hot, humid weather from June through September. The middle and southern parts of the island do not have an extended monsoon season during the winter months. Natural hazards such as typhoons and earthquakes are common in the region.” So, it sounds just like Japan, but warmer. I love tropical weather! Is the humidity unbearable, though?
Yes the humidity is unbearable in the summer. Everyplace has air conditioning though, literally everyplace. So just don’t go outside for four months and yer good.

• I saw a doc about foreigners living in China, and their living conditions were not exactly top-notch. This place here in Kyoto ain’t exactly the Ritz (2-3 Twinkie-sized cockroaches per year), but there’s at least a modicum of privacy and a reasonable amount of space.
Depends on how much you want to spend, and whether or not you insist on “Western style” apartments which mostly means a real kitchen with oven/dishwasher etc. If you are OK with Taiwanese style then decent living spaces are affordable.

• It seems that, due to the high number of foreigners there, there is an availability of foreign food? There are 3 “foreign” food shops here in Kyoto, so I can buy chili, beans, Mexican, etc. There are similar shops in Taipei, right? 80% of the time Chinese (or Japanese) food is ok, but I need some spaghetti or whatever once in a while.
Yes you can get standard Western foods in any Taipei grocery store. Plus there are specialty Western-food stores that are a bit more expensive, and also a Costco which is as cheap as you would want you just can’t buy in small quantities.

Also international restaurants of every possibly variety, most of high quality, are available, especially in Tianmu, and also decent chains like Outback steakhouse all over the city. You can get anything you want. Food generally is very high quality in Taipei at all price ranges.

5

I’ve heard all of those, or similar complaints from foreigners here in Taiwan before. Not to say they’re justified, but still.

6

Sure you can talk Chinese here, why not. What annoyed me greatly though is the fact that some people simply don’t want to understand you, even though I know what I asked for was correct in tones and grammar. That plus some people off course force their “English” on to you. You will encounter that in most Asian countries is my guess.

Commuting in Taipei traffic rush hours will nearly choke you to death with all their fuming scooters but apart from that I can’t complain. I live in Ximending, and old part of Taipei with lots of old (low class) people. Once or twice a year it does happen that some old *ucker spits right in from of me, probably not on purpose even. :fume: I do find that utterly rude, no matter their cultural background or habits, and make sure they see my face that spits fire on to them. I won’t start cursing and loose face with the risk they don’t even understand why I am pissed off. It is always on the tip of my tongue though to ask if they bloody are “Chinese” (Mainlanders) or what?

I too hate cold weather and I do suffer during winters here. Especially those never ending non stop rainy days can depress the crap out of me. Maybe I should have moved more down South but well, Taipei offers all that gives me fun and comfort in life. I just have to live with that. Taiwan is supposed to be sub-tropical but I have to admit, I had completely other expectations of that. Yes, it is humid as hell. My leather motorcycle jacket feels like wet carton and almost walked out of the room from fungus. Mind you, I have a dehumidifier switched on non stop the whole year. Worse is that all my camera equipment got affected by this too (I am a professional photographer so I am not happy :cry: ) .

From what I have heard finding a jobs seems to get harder and harder. I also heard the Government issue’s less working permit, based on TW’s reclining economy. Not sure weather this is correct or not, not really important anyway. If you are good and willing, there is always work.

There are a lot of foreigners here? Gee, that is very “relative” haha. I personally thought to notice I see fewer every year. Whenever I go to Bangkok, Hong Kong or even Tokio I am always surprised (shocked is a better description here) about the huge number of foreigners around me. In my area in Taipei I can walk around and see maybe 5 to 10 foreigners, sometimes none at all. If I see a black person here I catch myself almost staring. I don’t mind at all about the lack of these, after all that plus the much better climate was one of the main reasons of moving to Taiwan. Slowly I am getting used to being stared at myself by local Taiwanese or being called names by little kids. I don’t understand them anyway and what I don’t understand can hardly hurt me, right? I did notice right away when in Japan that I wasn’t been stared at and just blended into the crowd as if I were back home in Europe. Almost unreal. I was there for 2 weeks and have never met a single person who was able to speak a single word of English, not even at my hotel. Very strange. It became a pretty lonely 2 weeks.

Whenever I am out on my motorcycle I am non stop openly being stared at, whenever I have to stop for a red light (80% of the time when out for a ride :cry:). Like I am some celebrity or an alien from Mars. If that would happen in some remote village I can understand but even here in Taipei? I just can’t get used to all that gazing. Sometimes they even start screaming hello or worse, touch me or my bike. Dunno if it is me or the bike but man, it is hard to get used to. Maybe I should start wearing a full face helmet to cover my big white nose but with that I loose the huge benefit of always being waved through by Police.

Anything you can think of in terms of food or items can be found in Taipei, if you search for it. They love anything “foreign” here. Mostly cheap too. I never ever made my own breakfast or cooked a meal.

About housing; I was extremely lucky with finding a 60 ping office space on the first floor down town the city center for only 14.000 NT! The place looked like absolute shit, had no water heater nor aircon but those I bought 2nd hand and painted the place in colors I like. I even have a double entry door so I can drive my motorcycle indoors in a corner so I can work on that whenever I want and never have to worry it being stolen. Sure, life isn’t perfect in Taiwan but to me it gets as close to being perfect as it can get. Being white in Taiwan gives you lots of benefits while I am sure that if I would live in Japan, I would have been in jail in no time. When departing from Narita airport last time I had to wait 5 hours for my flight and was dosing off. I was poked by 2 machine gun armed Police men, had to show my passport and ticket and open my luggage. I still don’t know for what reason but my guess is it was my leather jacket (I visited the Tokio Car- and Motorcycle show that time). They could have at least wished me a good flight or have said thank you and good bye… :s

Rest me to say: “When are you moving to Taiwan?” :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

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Japan is always getting attacked by giant caterpiller. Stay away.

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:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

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Ah well, just decide if you want to trade in the cleanness of Japan with the occasional betlenut spit and sewer smell and garbage corners of Taiwan.

In return people are more friendly, even though you will be still a mutant freak from Mars here. A “handsome” one though.

Everything else is mostly the same I guess.

10

Supermarkets smell worse in Japan.

11

Hi,

Adding to what has been already said above…
I also lived a few years in Japan (Fukuoka) and speak quite OK Japanese (never mastered Keigo though). Now I have been here in Taiwan for around 4 years and prefer living in Taiwan over Japan for the following reasons:

  • As you said, foreigners are always outsiders in Japan and even if you speak the language it is very hard to be accepted and find a few good friends. Most Japanese will always hide behind their outer facade (tatamae), and will rarely let anybody see behind it. Kyoto is actually one of the worst places for that. Kyoto people are famous throughout Japan to be the most repellent to Non-Kyoto people (incl. Japanese from other places).
    Here in Taiwan, people seemed to me much more welcoming to foreigners, and approach you mostly with an open heart. I found easier access to the locals here (despite very poor Chinese skills) than in Japan, where I actually understand the language much better.

  • Weather is definite a plus if you dont like the cold - in general it is more humid here (in Summer & Winter)… but as already pointed out it rarely gets below 10 degree C… In an average Winter you may have 1 or 2 weeks with temperatures going below 10 degree… normally it is around 15 - 18 degree in Winter…

  • prices … Living cost, local travel, restaurants etc. are much more reasonably priced than in Japan. I would even say that Living in Taiwan probably has the best value for money rate in all of Asia.

  • Food - there are great Taiwanese, Chinese (from all kinds of provinces), Japanese, Korean and lots of western Restaurants for quite good prices (the western restaurants normally being a bit more expensive, but still cheap compared to Japan)… Check out the Restaurants Forum hungryintaipei.blogspot.com/

  • Live is more easy - In Japan there are rules for every little part of your life… even if there is no rule, then probably a rules says that for this area there shall be no rules…
    In Taiwan most things are not so complicated, and rules are often not too much enforced and there is some Taiwanese way around them (which also can lead to frustration)…

  • easier/cheaper travel to the rest of Asia
    TW is somewhat more centrally in Asia, therefore trips to Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Hong Kong, China etc. are more cheap and shorter…

Hope this helps you a little… If unsure, make a short vacation to TW, and see for yourself.

Cheers,
Mr. Rice

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Wow, thanks for all the replies! Very useful and interesting. Seems fairly positive!

I almost forgot - what about the net? I’ve got very fast fiber optic here and often d/l movies etc. However, I believe torrents etc. are illegal here in JP. I heard that China restricts net access (Wikipedia, Google, etc.) - does this apply to Taiwan as well?

Mr. Rice: Yeah,I am coming!. What you said about Kyoto seems to be true. I’ve heard it before, but even Japanese that live here from other prefectures complain about it. Attitudes range from silent to cold, basically. That, coupled with the usual Japanese shyness / language barrier / excessive rules etc. makes for some depressing times here. The nicest, friendliest people I’ve met here have been my boss & co-workers at my Chinese school - very cool people. They were a deciding factor in making me consider Taiwan.

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The internet is uncensored in TW, meaning all websites etc. are accessible - not like in China…

Network lines however are not that nice as in Japan, where almost every house is connected with Fiber.
But you can get reasonably priced DSL up to 10MBit almost everywhere on the Island. However, these 10MBit are only guaranteed for traffic within Taiwan. Access to servers in the US or Europe is sometimes quite slow… Check the technology forum about all the discussions about internet speeds… Newer housing complexes in the cities are also connected with Fiber.

Btw regarding the weather: Check the Central Weather Bureau for statistical data of recent years for all regions in TW (e.g. lowest and max temperatures, average temperatures, rainfall etc.
cwb.gov.tw/eng/index.htm

Cheers,
Mr. Rice

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I much prefer life in Japan to Taiwan, but then I’m just weird. And I don’t live on the mainland, but in Okinawa, which offers the best of both worlds. One of the best things about Okinawa is that you don’t have to put up with the stench of the open sewers that pass for a drain system in Taiwan, the endless crappy weather in Taipei, or the selfish pedestrians and scooter riders and drivers. But I do miss my friends.

Kyoto is stunning. One of my favourite cities in the whole world (but as a visitor, not a resident). Compared to Kyoto, Taipei is a filthy cesspit. But it is cheap, much cheaper than Japan, and marginally more friendly. You’ll still be the foreigner, though, no matter where you go in Asia. Can’t avoid that.

15

Taiwan is great, but most of the things that annoy you in Japan happen here too, and most other Asian countries. The good news is, that’s you, not the countries, and after a few years, you stop really seeing those as negatives.

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Everyone has their own personal reasons for traveling to or living in an area. If it were up to me, I’d take Kyoto any day. I’m here because my partner is here. It’s not a bad place, but just move here with your eyes open.

To directly address the points you raise:

[ul]1) If you love studying Mandarin, then it makes more sense to be in a Mandarin-speaking country.

  1. It’s just as impossible to be “accepted” here, in the sense that I assume you mean by not being accepted in Japan. Even if you go so far as to get Taiwanese citizenship, you will always be a wiaguoren. Here, there is generally the same assumption that you are here temporarily, but add to that the incredulity that you would want to be here in the first place. So many locals I come across here are trying to get out.

  2. While you will have no problem finding people with whom you can speak Mandarin, you would be hard pressed to find someone on the streets who will correct your Mandarin. Further, unless your tones are accurate or unless the person has had exposure to foreigners mangling Mandarin tones, you will probably get blank stares. In Japan, if you don’t use the precise level of politeness, they will still understand what you are saying.

  3. It’s humid here, too. You won’t get snow, but it’s still damp and cold in the winter, at least in the north, and oppressively hot and humid in the summer. There is also no central heating in homes here, either. You will be stuck with the same, expensive space-heaters.

  4. I’ve not been to China, but compared to Taiwan, Japan is pristine. Get out of the big cities here and it’s not so bad, but the jobs are in the big cities. Taipei is located in a geographic soup-bowl, trapping the exhaust from the largely unregulated scooters and cars. You worry about cock roaches there, we have them here too, as does most any warm, humid, tropical place, but add to that the monster-size rats! :astonished:

  5. It’s easier to find work teaching kids here than teaching adults. Also, you seldom get block-hours teaching adults and may not only have hours spread throughout the day, but meetings all over the city. The hours teaching adults are not steady, either. Business people, especially if you teach 1:1, cancel and reschedule a lot. You may also want to do a financial comparison. I don’t know what the pay is there, but it’s not great here. (Search the dozens of threads on the topic.)

  6. About the living conditions, I miss tatami’s… The cost and size of apartments here vary greatly, depending on whether you are in more urban or rural areas. I only lived in 1 apartment in Japan, and it was a decent size, nicely appointed and fairly modern. My impression is that here, everyone does things on the cheap. In Japan, they seemed to care more about quality. Again, that’s my personal, limited impression.

  7. Lots of food choices in Taipei.[/ul]

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In case you hadn’t noticed China is China across the ocean and Taiwan is Taiwan. They are for all intents and purposes separate countries.

You can also get 50mb and 100mb download lines in some parts of Taiwan.

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[quote=“Mr. Rice”]But you can get reasonably priced DSL up to 10MBit almost everywhere on the Island. However, these 10MBit are only guaranteed for traffic within Taiwan. Access to servers in the US or Europe is sometimes quite slow… Check the technology forum about all the discussions about internet speeds… Newer housing complexes in the cities are also connected with Fiber.

Cheers,
Mr. Rice[/quote]

No countries guarantees speeds to other countries. Even in Japan you can get slow connections to the USA and not download from the USA any faster than you can in Taiwan. You are also dependent on the upload speeds from the USA.

19

[quote=“CraigTPE”] It’s just as impossible to be “accepted” here, in the sense that I assume you mean by not being accepted in Japan.

My impression is that here, everyone does things on the cheap. In Japan, they seemed to care more about quality. Again, that’s my personal, limited impression.[/quote]

Cannot say I disagree more. Of course foreigners are “accepted” here. As in any country there are always a few red necks who don’t like anybody from outside of their own close circle, not even other “locals”

Taiwan does not have a large immigrant population of non ethnic Chinese so it’s normal to be called a foreigner, especially when you are one.

My impression is that many foreigners live here on the cheap. It’s not like quality apartments are not there or that a quality lifestyle is not available. It’s about your socio econonics that determins how you can live. I travel to Japan a lot and stay in Shinagawa and Nishi . Now even for most Japanese that area is out of reach for them financially to live there. Tokyo is a fun place to visit but I can’t say what it’s like to live there. Next week I am up in Nagano again. Beuatfil mountain ranges up there. Great railway system and easy to get around. Even with my limited Japanese I can manage to catch a taxi to the areas I need to get to.

The MRT here is pretty good and most people do not use scooters to get around on. For the job market I have no idea what that is like.

20

I’m not quite sure what people mean by being “accepted” nor am I sure that I want to be accepted but my own experience after being here long enough so that it is very clear that I am not leaving is that people pretty much accept me as being part of Taiwan although perhaps not in the same way as someone who grew up here. In short, I’m an immigrant and treated as such in a generally friendly and open way. A comment I often hear is that “You are half a Taiwanese.” I’m not sure I particularly like that comment because I actually don’t think I’m very Taiwanese at all, but there it is.

As for “locals” trying to get out, those locals belong to a certain urban middle class segment of society. The vast majority of Taiwanese have no interest at all in leaving although of course you will always meet some people for one personal reason or another do want to live somewhere else.