Yesterday on a different thread I posted a question on the pros and cons of living in Taiwan and Japan, respectively, especially with regards to the annoyances brought about by petty (and usually subconscious and therefore unacknowledged) racism. Got a very thoughtful response, which I have pasted below, but would be very interested to hear from others with first- or second-hand knowledge about both places.
“I have heard from friends that lived in Japan before that their experience with Japanese people is different than that here. From what I’ve heard (correct me if someone has had the experience themselves), where the Taiwanese will be nice to you and pretend like they want you as part of their society, the Japanese make it very clear your business there is to do your job and that’s it. Friends have told me they find it easier to make local friends here by far, but they feel that the Japanese friends (however little) they did make seem more sincere than the Taiwanese ones. The Japanese are also more upfront about their racism than the Taiwanese, which maybe you prefer (like myself). At least I would know where I stand with some people instead of having to guess or figure it out. In both places, we as westerners just don’t fit in, so we should just give up on expecting to be treated equally.”
I just can’t muster the energy to be concerned about being treated equally on an emotional level. Did you get treated as an equal in all circumstances in your home country? I can’t say I did.
The big thing is being physically treated badly. What I mean is segregation. Neither Japan or Taiwan has this kind of attitude.
As an answer to your question, I’m not sure which I prefer! As a bias it has to be Taiwan, but that is a personal bias only.
[quote=“Steviebike”]What makes you worry about it?
I just can’t muster the energy to be concerned about being treated equally on an emotional level. Did you get treated as an equal in all circumstances in your home country? I can’t say I did.
The big thing is being physically treated badly. What I mean is segregation. Neither Japan or Taiwan has this kind of attitude.
As an answer to your question, I’m not sure which I prefer! As a bias it has to be Taiwan, but that is a personal bias only.[/quote]
Hope this thread doesn’t degenerate into a futile whiners vs no-whiners debate. As the thread about wasting your life in Taiwan has amply demonstrated, it’s a real enough concern for enough people to merit serious discussion. This includes discussion about possible alternatives, if any.
There was an extremely drunk girl in the bar i work at that had to be escorted out (nicely by her boyfriend) problem was she was shouting and screaming and it was 1am, we have noise regulations as its a residential area.
I kept asking her nicely to be quiet and she just laughed and carried on shouting nonsense about me being a handsome man (seriously! ) after about 2 minutes of this i got quiet angry and basically TOLD :fume: the boyfriend to escort her around the corner so we don’t get the blame for the noise.
She then started screaming for me to get out of her country, with random expletives thrown in every now and then… it was quite shocking and awkward, but to be honest this is the 3rd time in 1 year i have had this.
Last year i had it from my neighbor when i confronted him for banging in his house all hours of the night.
I’m Japanese who have all my families live in Japan.
With that said, the racism is everywhere you go regardless of the country. Tokyo is huge city and you’ll see gaijin everywhere. Heck nowadays, there are so many new immigrants, especially from China now.
With that said, I think Japanese people are less expressive then that of Taiwan (And I love Taiwan for that actually) and you won’t see them speak their mind as often as you might be in Taiwan.
Japanese people really value immigrants who can follow the community rules and respect the culture. As long as you do that, you’ll be just fine IMO.
Golden rule is, that there are stupid people everywhere you go. How you deal with it is up to you.
This is actually true for Japanese people as well. You should do what you are supposed to do, and nothing but.
I find it less true in the countryside. Tokyo was a bit of a mind trip, I don’t think I could live there - there’s too much pressure to conform. Give me my mountains and bays and we’ll all be good.
I feel like there’s more freedom in Japan for foreigners to grow and do their own thing. A foreigner speaking Japanese is no longer a novelty (plenty of them, especially in Tokyo) and the laws on visas for starting businesses, working etc. are much more chilled than Taiwan.
Things are done properly in Japan too. Not like Taiwan where everything’s haphazard, dangerous and dirty :raspberry: But Taiwan’s chabuduoism makes it easier to start your own restaurant, bar, school, office, club or shop with very little red tape, whereas Japan is really just The West in Asia without the ‘Western’ Culture - you know, there are lots of forms to fill, licenses to apply for, standards to meet and inspections to pass.
From what I hear teaching English in Taiwan is better because you have more freedom (again, the ‘do things properly’ thing - however, Japan really messes up language & translation teaching and grading, so their ‘properly’ is pretty crap).
EDIT: Copyright laws in Japan are stricter than the US, too. So you really can’t pirate anything there, which kind of sucks! (Though I’m sure I’m going to get flamed for that line.)
In this thread like in many others on this board people think they talk about the situation of “foreigners in Taiwan”, but what they actually do is talking about a smal group of foreigners in Taiwan, people from Western nations.
Yes, which form the majority of posters on Fcom and those who come here looking for information. SE Asian migrant workers have different venues for discussing their issues. How about you go tell them that their experiences in Taiwan, which includes bosses holding ARCs, sexual harassment on a daily basis, curfews, being looked down upon for coming from a poor country, is not true for all foreigners in Taiwan. I’m sure they will appreciate being enlightened.
Yes, which form the majority of posters on Fcom and those who come here looking for information. SE Asian migrant workers have different venues for discussing their issues. How about you go tell them that their experiences in Taiwan, which includes bosses holding ARCs, sexual harassment on a daily basis, curfews, being looked down upon for coming from a poor country, is not true for all foreigners in Taiwan. I’m sure they will appreciate being enlightened.[/quote]
You got told, dude! :bravo:
Talking about the situation of foreigners in Taiwan does include all foreigners in Taiwan and not just those who come here looking for information. Kind of disappointing that you don’t see this MuchaMan.
I think one of Taiwan’s biggest charm is how free and self responsible you need to be. This is why i love ithere so much, there is almost no nanny state. I have only been to Japan as a tourist and visiting friends (some of which are taiwanese who have married into jap families and are now japanese.)
But being responsible for your own shit is not always a good thing, more so for some than others. For me i love the fact if somethign breaks, you get it fixed or ignore it til someone else does it. I hope that part of Taiwan never changes to the type of nation where you are herded into your line to do your specific duties and go back to your home which has regulated every aspect of every detail so that you may not do anything out of the ordinary to your “own” home.
Taiwan > Japan, for that reason. Plus Japan is ultra expensive, but maybe thats jsut being a tourist and daily life isnt really that bad?
you are right, but surely you must see that Indonesian, filipino etc workers here are treated completely different to say White foreigners. The western type foreigners bitch about being talked about and not given respect, but really the asian foreigners in general receive the real racism here imo.
When wearing a smile, I (being white) have not once ever actually been truly confronted and insulted directly. I have seen many Indonesians get it though. I have had issues with Taiwanese but i cannot honestly say i was not at least part of the problem. I think for “western” expats its more a culture difference that we cannot really accept, not so much true disrespect/hate. Taiwanese may come off rude, but often not to otehr taiwanese which leaves it at its our problem perhaps.
So with that, wow it was good talking with you. Gosh you’re much fatter now, you should fix your car soon its not good. Bye Bye
Not in our present context it doesn’t. And there is nothing wrong with that. The fact that you have to keep reminding people that there are caveats for SE Asians is a sign that we live in vastly different worlds, and it is pointless to pretend otherwise.
That a SE Asian dark skin migrant is going to cop a lot of discrimination is not really relevant to the conversation among educated middle class people from the west. Just like the fact that native Canadians often cop a lot of discrimination from citizens and police alike in my country does not mean that Chinese immigrants should bring that up when talking about potential problems for them in Canada.
[quote]I’m Japanese who have all my families live in Japan.
With that said, the racism is everywhere you go regardless of the country. Tokyo is huge city and you’ll see gaijin everywhere. Heck nowadays, there are so many new immigrants, especially from China now.
With that said, I think Japanese people are less expressive then that of Taiwan (And I love Taiwan for that actually) and you won’t see them speak their mind as often as you might be in Taiwan.
Japanese people really value immigrants who can follow the community rules and respect the culture. As long as you do that, you’ll be just fine IMO.[/quote]
Mucha Man, your preception is wrong. This thread is about all kind of foreigners in Taiwan and Japan. Maybe you can start a new thread about educated middle class people from the West living in Taiwan.
[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“touduke”][quote]I’m Japanese who have all my families live in Japan.
With that said, the racism is everywhere you go regardless of the country. Tokyo is huge city and you’ll see gaijin everywhere. Heck nowadays, there are so many new immigrants, especially from China now.
With that said, I think Japanese people are less expressive then that of Taiwan (And I love Taiwan for that actually) and you won’t see them speak their mind as often as you might be in Taiwan.
Japanese people really value immigrants who can follow the community rules and respect the culture. As long as you do that, you’ll be just fine IMO.[/quote]
Muzha Man, your preception is wrong. This thread is about all kind of foreigners in Taiwan and Japan. Maybe you can start a new thread about educated middle class people from the West living in Taiwan.[/quote]
Okay, you have an agenda to push. I get that. I’m out of here.[/quote]
That would be a pity. To be honest, as the OP I was asking mostly about the experience of white middle-class foreigners. Think all the many SE Asians on this forum might want to open their own thread to discuss their specific issues.
As a white middle-class foreigner my experience about the situation of foreigners in Taiwan is that Taiwanese who are smiling at me: “Hawaiiooo hahaha?” yell at their Indonesian maid just a second later. It is a rather eerie display and influences my opinion about people here a lot. It makes me feel uncomfortable.
rogerthat, seems that I cause a little trouble in your thread. Sorry for that. I am sure you will get lots of valuable input.
But my experiences as a white, middle class westerner in Taiwan have been very extreme.
Either people have been EXTREMELY racist or they have been EXTREMELY friendly and welcoming.
Luckily, I would have to say 90% has been the latter.
I have only been here since August, but so far that is what I have experienced.
In all honesty (and let people hate me for this) I have noticed that many foreigners here are the dropout drunks. How many posts about “gangsters” beating up foreigners happened at bars? If a China man walked into a bar in my hometown in Kentucky and started hitting on the local girls, I am sure something similar might could very well happen.
At both 711’s I frequent, I have been asked numerous times “why you no buy beer? foreign man always buy so much beer, drink drink drink every day”. And I actually know they are not being racist, for the one closest to my house employs 4 young ladies who have helped my wife and I out SOOO much since we moved here and they were actually referring to the ONE other foreign couple in our neighborhood (not a lot of foreigners where we live). Then they say “Oh, you soo different, you just buy latte everyday”. (this conversation actually happened this morning).
I think a lot of it has to do with your attitude and how you represent yourself. When I tell them I am Buddhist, they try to set me up with their daughter/sister/cousin/themselves until I tell them I am married :no-no:
[quote=“Confuzius”]
In all honesty (and let people hate me for this) I have noticed that many foreigners here are the dropout drunks. [/quote]
You are perpetuating an untrue (and annoying) stereotype. I suggest you stop going to bars and start going to universities/academia sinica/parks/museums/libraries/Chinese classes/conferences and other public places where you can meet non-intoxicated people. Your perception will change pretty quickly, I’m guessing…
[quote=“Confuzius”]
At both 711’s I frequent, I have been asked numerous times “why you no buy beer? foreign man always buy so much beer, drink drink drink every day”. [/quote]
Taiwanese people have never said anything remotely similar to me in such situations, so I wouldn’t generalize too much. Perhaps there’s a drunk in your area who has made an impression.
And there are millions of Taiwanese people that do the same thing everyday, too. What does this have to do with foreigners? And what else is there to buy in 7-11? Newspapers, junk food and bottled drinks…I guess you can order stuff and have it sent there.
I actually have no idea what this post is about now, but the drunkard-foreigner stereotype gets on my nerves. Sure, if one limits their population to clubs, drunkardness is an adequate descriptions, but not just for foreigners
As for the initial topic, I was in Japan about 6 years ago or so and the people were kind to me – more so than anywhere else I’ve been, including the US. A family took me in for a few days and when I was leaving the mother was kneeling on the ground outside her house bowing as we drove away. I still don’t know what to think of it. I guess what makes many foreigners uncomfortable there is that the culture is very different from western culture. It is the only place in the world where I had no idea what to do – the bowing situation is a good example. Taiwanese culture is very relaxed, I think, and accessible to westerners. It’s at the other end of the spectrum. Comparing the two is like comparing burritos and kimchi… There are two people that post on Forumosa (at least) who have lived in Japan and speak the language. I’d be interested in reading what they think…
) after about 2 minutes of this i got quiet angry and basically TOLD :fume: the boyfriend to escort her around the corner so we don’t get the blame for the noise.
walked into a bar in my hometown in Kentucky and started hitting on the local girls, I am sure something similar might could very well happen.