I’m confident that Taiwanese has a word for ‘squidburger’. But what about ‘seal flipper pie’? Is there a standard Chinese character? More evidence of its inherent inferiority!
[quote=“zender”]
I don’t know, the chief, maybe those Tai-Da top ten percenters just speak Taiwanese around you so they can talk about you without you understanding them.
Try sneakin’ up on a few of 'em.
Put those ninja skills to use. 
[/quote]
Nah, I’m the silverback, they all name their kids after me. 
All about the Cod Cheek Salad, baby…
[quote=“ice raven”]Not where I live! ALL the old people speak Hoklo, and most 20-30 year olds are equally fluent in Mandarin and Hoklo.
My kid’s a slow learner at speaking, as he’s processing three different languages at once. Poor kid.[/quote]
My son has the same problem. He’s three now and coming along nicely. He can understand Chinese, Taiwanese and English equally well, but tends to mix languages a little. Things like 我要water. But overall, if he’s address by an outsider (to the family), like teachers, he only speaks Chinese or Taiwanese.
Where do you live? I’m in Tainan and I find the older people all speak Taiwanese, but I’ve noticed that when a younger person (like the 12 year old neighbour of ours) joins in a conversation it changes from Taiwanese to Mandarin. Most 20 to 30 year olds around here can understand (they say the do 
) Taiwanese but don’t speak more than a few halting phrases or words. There are the exceptions, of course, like my wife. But all the other guys I know that are married to Taiwanese women (mostly from Pingdong, Tainan and one from Nantou), their wives can speak very little if at all…
That’s about exactly what I’ve experienced. You also notice that in most cases when younger people speak fluent Taiwanese, their Mandarin isn’t all to wonderful and they usually are the type of lads with tattoos on their calves and arms and chewing binlang riding two to a scooter without helmets on. Oddly enough, I usually find them more interesting than the usually more genteel and “educated” guys.
Long live Taiwanese! The Afrikaans of Taiwan! 
I’m not talking about Aboriginal languages, but about Taiwanese (aka Min-Nan Hua). I would talk about Aboriginal languages collectively as Taiwanese Aboriginal Languages or refer to them as Amei Hua, Bunnan Hua etc…
They have an official set now.
a-gu.blogspot.com/search?q=Taiwanese+characters
And romanization works fine anyway.[/quote]
Thanks for the link.
I don’t know, I think that the danger signs are all there - reduced fluency in younger speakers, shrinking area of speech (geographically and socio-politically), political hostility from one party, apathy from the other. The perception of Mandarin as the superior language is entrenched, and getting more deeply so. Most of the people I am in contact with in the Taiwanese language community (those holding professorships, writing books, lobbying government etc.) are putting a brave face on things, but if you speak to them privately will almost all admit that they fear for the future of the language. A language can slide into moribundity with remarkable speed given the right factors - there are examples from Indonesia of languages with millions of speakers post-WWII which are now moribund and destined for extinction. If you go out into the streets of Kaohsiung or small-town southern Taiwan, you will hear the language spoken by everyone. But I think this masks the rotten core, the decline of the language which is ongoing.[/quote]
I agree, but it’s the same with Afrikaans in South Africa, although it’s different in two unique ways:
- Native Afrikaans speakers in SA speak Afrikaans at home and it’s their children’s first language, even if they end up going to an English school. This isn’t always the case in Taiwan, because, as you point out, the history of suppression and the idea that it’s a less than desirable language…
- Even in English schools (where two languages from grade 1-12 are a pre-requisite) Afrikaans has always been an option outside of English, just as any of the other 11 official languages are. And it can be taken as a minor, major or NDP subject (non-degree purpose) subject at university. There is also a very much alive cultural scene operating in Afrikaans, from music, books, TV to movies and more.
Even if Mandarin continues to be the de facto single official language, if Taiwan adopts those two measures the language will be safe. The Afrikaners still fear, yet don’t understand (how they are in fact preserving their language and culture), the future of their language and how it’s preservation begun at home as it should.
[quote=“Taffy”]
I don’t know, I think that the danger signs are all there - reduced fluency in younger speakers, shrinking area of speech (geographically and socio-politically), political hostility from one party, apathy from the other. The perception of Mandarin as the superior language is entrenched, and getting more deeply so. Most of the people I am in contact with in the Taiwanese language community (those holding professorships, writing books, lobbying government etc.) are putting a brave face on things, but if you speak to them privately will almost all admit that they fear for the future of the language. A language can slide into moribundity with remarkable speed given the right factors - there are examples from Indonesia of languages with millions of speakers post-WWII which are now moribund and destined for extinction. If you go out into the streets of Kaohsiung or small-town southern Taiwan, you will hear the language spoken by everyone. But I think this masks the rotten core, the decline of the language which is ongoing.[/quote]
That’s what I hear from people active in the Taiwanese language community too. But I think there is a strong class element to their views. They want educated people to speak Taiwanese, and that is indeed rare. I think they tend to overlook how prevalent Taiwanese is among the working class.
Gosh its hard enough to find mandarin speakers to keep my mandarin up to par here in the bay area, now I have to find TAiwanese speakers. Probably will have to move to LA where most Taiwanezers move to outside of the rock itself.
Jesus Christ Tommy, when you say ‘Bay Area’ do you mean the part of the Bay Area known as your basement?
In the last week I’ve seen you state you never see Japanese girls in the Bay Area and now Chinese speakers???
Are you blind?
On topic…
What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.
[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“ice raven”]Not where I live! ALL the old people speak Hoklo, and most 20-30 year olds are equally fluent in Mandarin and Hoklo.
My kid’s a slow learner at speaking, as he’s processing three different languages at once. Poor kid.[/quote]
My son has the same problem. He’s three now and coming along nicely. He can understand Chinese, Taiwanese and English equally well, but tends to mix languages a little. Things like 我要water. But overall, if he’s address by an outsider (to the family), like teachers, he only speaks Chinese or Taiwanese.
Where do you live? I’m in Tainan and I find the older people all speak Taiwanese, but I’ve noticed that when a younger person (like the 12 year old neighbour of ours) joins in a conversation it changes from Taiwanese to Mandarin. Most 20 to 30 year olds around here can understand (they say the do ) Taiwanese but don’t speak more than a few halting phrases or words. There are the exceptions, of course, like my wife. But all the other guys I know that are married to Taiwanese women (mostly from Pingdong, Tainan and one from Nantou), their wives can speak very little if at all… [/quote]
I’m a 'Donger, as you know…
My wife much prefers Hoklo to Mandarin, and talks non-stop in it to all her friends and family.
She doesn’t want me to learn it “because then you could talk to my mother!” :roflmao: :roflmao:
Actually traitorous or not, I do believe mandarin sounds better (at least TW mandarin) then taiwanese.
And yes there are tons of mandarin speakers (from china mostly) in the bay area, but i am not out there canvassing . I do have a mandarin practice person to hang with now and then. But i dont personally know any taiwanese around here, other then the people that run that beef noodle place the Dalai Lama was at. But im not buds with them. I actually prefer TW mandarin rather then the china ones as well.
Im not like the mormons stopping everyone in the street and all that.
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]
What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.[/quote]
Mr Dropper, don’t hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel.
I was told , rightly or not that Minnan is actually older then mandarin. Believe you me or not.
Actually, I think Mandarin’s the real dog’s brekkie here as far as archaic goes. Nothing like forced national languages to shed a lot of colour. Look at that kiddy speak in Indo, Malaysia and even Tagalog.
I also like the sound of Taiwanese, and my only pity is that i didn’t spend more time learning it. Mind you, I loathe the sound of Canto, and refuse to learn a single phrase.
As for being rude, well hell’s bells, it’s usually the language families have nattered away in for generations. They’re not breaking into it to piss you off, they’re doing it because that’s the language they’re comfortable speaking to each other in.
HG
My wife’s Canto. She’s not allowed to speak to her family on the phone if I’m in the same room. When we visit Hong Kong, she’s not allowed to speak at all. She has to use gestures.
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.[/quote]
That’s such a shame. It’s richer phonologically and lexically, more lyrical, and more interesting than that compromise creole, Mandarin. As HGC says, many people feel more comfortable speaking Taiwanese and will do so all the time if you’re not around, but if people are switching precisely because they know you don’t understand then it’s just plain rude.
[quote=“ice raven”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“ice raven”]Not where I live! ALL the old people speak Hoklo, and most 20-30 year olds are equally fluent in Mandarin and Hoklo.
My kid’s a slow learner at speaking, as he’s processing three different languages at once. Poor kid.[/quote]
My son has the same problem. He’s three now and coming along nicely. He can understand Chinese, Taiwanese and English equally well, but tends to mix languages a little. Things like 我要water. But overall, if he’s address by an outsider (to the family), like teachers, he only speaks Chinese or Taiwanese.
Where do you live? I’m in Tainan and I find the older people all speak Taiwanese, but I’ve noticed that when a younger person (like the 12 year old neighbour of ours) joins in a conversation it changes from Taiwanese to Mandarin. Most 20 to 30 year olds around here can understand (they say the do ) Taiwanese but don’t speak more than a few halting phrases or words. There are the exceptions, of course, like my wife. But all the other guys I know that are married to Taiwanese women (mostly from Pingdong, Tainan and one from Nantou), their wives can speak very little if at all… [/quote]
I’m a 'Donger, as you know…[/quote]
Ah yes, I forgot… 
Makes sense though. I think they’d still be more Taiwanese speaking up there than a lot of other places.
[quote=“ice raven”]My wife much prefers Hoklo to Mandarin, and talks non-stop in it to all her friends and family.
She doesn’t want me to learn it “because then you could talk to my mother!” :roflmao: :roflmao:[/quote]
My wife doesn’t exactly discourage it, but it’s not like she helps me any.
Spouses are usually crap for learning languages off, but great for adding the finishing touches after you’ve attained a decent level of proficiency.
The thing that always stopped me taking on Taiwanese more enthusiastically was the crap Romanisation. I also find it a stumbling block with Thai. At least Mandarin pinyin or zhuyin are fairly easy to get your head around, and both are used with far more consistency.
HG
I used to like the sound of Taiwanese but these days it is just an impediment to my learning Mandarin. If had an EASY way to learn Taiwanese by listening (and referring to a well structured romanization system) and by recycling the high frequency stuff I’m likely to hear I might start to feel differently about it, I dunno. At this point I just wish it would go away.
The dialect I LOVE to hear is Cantonese. That to me is super cool Chinese.
You’re mad. Usually you can pleasantly influence the sound of a language. There’s simply no such option in Cantonese. As the phrase goes - “I’d rather hear two people from Ningbo fighting than listen to Cantonese talk about love.”
I have a theory that the weird oral gyrations required to make the requisite sound in Canto gobbledygook distort the facial features and aside from being very unappealing to witness, particularly when women speak, also creates bad breath issues. That could also be the food, which is the worst in the region.
HG
[quote=“bob”]The dialect I LOVE to hear is Cantonese. That to me is super cool Chinese.[/quote]Me too, bob. I’ve always liked it.
I don’t know what else to say. Cantonese causes bad breath!
Anyway, Cantonese is the first dialect I heard (and heard it A LOT) so there might be an association with wilder times or something, who knows why anybody likes anything. All I know is that if I go from listening to Mandarin to listening to Cantonese (quite a bit I can understand somehow) it’s like stepping from Wal Mart to the Louvre or something. Taiwanese is like stepping into the Congo. I like it but have always moved forward on the assumption that learning it would screw up my Mandarin.
Thanks god, my girlfriend is a third generation mainlander, when seeing her family, there is no taiwanese language, no taiwanese accent in their mandarin, a real pleasure when chatting
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]What I am gonna say will piss people off, but I don’t care, it is how I feel. I fucking hate the TWese language, and the main reason (aside from the fact it sounds annoying as hell) is because once people get an inkling that I can speak Mandarin they immediately start ‘galigonin’ each other till they’re nauseous. It is Pavlovian at this point, the minute I hear it, I get mad, and if I have to sit through one more meeting with suppliers or one more car drive or meal with the inlaws where everyone has halted their Mandarin to drop TaiYu bombs somebody’s gonna get hurt.
It is fucking rude as hell. Fuck that archaic half-language.[/quote]
I agree, it’s also hurting my ears each time I hear it. I also hate taiwanese accent when they speak mandarin (‘‘s’’ instead of ‘‘sh’’, etc…)
Therefore, I will never date a girl who speaks taiwanese. Hearing taiwanese accent is a complete turn off for me.
‘‘ze zong seng u pian hen hao ci!’’ (這種生魚片很好吃) 討厭! :fume: