Taiwanese acceptance of religion

What do I like about Taiwan?

Born-again Christains are practically no-existant. The last time I met one he asked me if I have read the most correct book on the face of the Earth. I replied, “the dictionary?”

I really enjoy the religious tolerance of the people I meet. No Catholic bashing, except from the Mormon Missionaries, that I got when I lived in Georgia. I find that people I met show a polite interest in my religious faith and I don’t find people calling me a “Mary worshipper” or trying to convert me to “Christianity” like when I lived in the American South!

The short flippant answer when someone asks me why I like Taiwan so much: Because nobody here ever tries to tell me about Jesus.

The more thoughtful version is that Taiwanese people seem to understand at a fundamental level that religious truth is subjective- that while religions ostensibly are referring to an objective reality, it just doesn’t make any sense to say: My religion is right and your religion is wrong. Even Taiwanese converts (to Mormonism, or some sect of X’ianity) seem to be low key about proselytizing.

I think that’s a feature of Buddhism, it doesn’t say it’s the one true religion and believers of others will go to Hell, as Christianity and Islam do.

I think it is deeper than that. One of reasons India has always had such terrible problems with religious violence is that Hindus are literally pagans (polytheistic), and Muslims aren’t down with pagans. Now China has a large Muslim population, in the center and south in addition to Xinjiang, and traditional Chinese religion has more gods than you can shake a stick at. Why no religious violence against the pagan Chinese? (the Xinjiang unrest is another kind of religious violence altogether)

Ha! The amount of Taiwanese I have met who understand religion at all I could count on one hand. Yes, there are oodles of money-burners, and people hoping for wishes to be granted going to temples hoping for success in business, their children’s exams, giving birth to a boy; there are lots of people who dutifully put food, whisby and cigarettes on a table at ghost month, but they do not understand anything about religion at a fundamental level. Ask for a quote from scripture - any scripture - and you will get a blank gaze and a slackjaw response. Ask them what the Four Essential Truths of Buddhism are. Or what the Noble Eightfold Path is. Ask anyone what the reverse swastika represents. Or why there are no gods in original Daoism but there are in modern Daoism. Ask them how one can be a “good” Mazu-ist. (Mazu is a goddess, right? If it’s possible to be a good Catholic, a good Jew, a good Muslim, or a good Baptist, then it must be possible to be a good Mazu-ist. More blank looks, I promise you.) The sorry truth is, is that there is almost no religious education of any kind in Taiwan. Heck, even non-Christians and atheists in the west know about original sin, Noah’s ark, they know the significance of Bethlehem, they know what the crucifix represents. How many Taiwanese know the Buddha’s name or earthly station/occupation? Taiwanese interest in religion is limited to making loud noises, a lot of smoke, and cooking a lot of food for the gods (as long as they get a crack at it when the gods are done.) :unamused:

Good point. It’s one of the aspects of Taiwan that I often praise to local people. There are few places in the world that are less blighted by religious bigotry, intolerance, and interference in secular affairs.

I am not saying that Taiwanese have a deep understanding of religion.

If I say: Go Bucs.
And you say: That is incorrect.

I would look at you oddly. I didn’t say that the Bucs were good, or that the world would be a better place if they won, I simply expressed support for the Buccaneers. How can we argue about this?

But if I say: Jesus is the son of God.
And you say: No. Jesus was a prophet of God, but not divine in himself.

Then we can have a rousing old argument, with the illusion that there is a correct answer and an incorrect answer. But I think that Taiwanese (and maybe Chinese) understand that our argument about the ‘true’ nature of Jesus makes about as much sense as an argument over ‘Go Bucs’. So, religious arguments here don’t seem to get to the ‘Die Heathen!’ phase, and proselytizing is rare. When I do encounter it, it is remarkably low key.

Good point. It’s one of the aspects of Taiwan that I often praise to local people. There are few places in the world that are less blighted by religious bigotry, intolerance, and interference in secular affairs.[/quote]
True, but that’s because people here are ignorant of religion, not because they are tolerant. Same reason there’s no soccer hooliganism here - there’s no soccer.

That’s true. And I DO agree that the Taiwanese are a very tolerant lot when it comes to religion - I just attribute that tolerance to ignorance/disinterest in religion and theology, not to any special virtue on the part of most Taiwanese.

Incidentally, most of the Taiwanese Christian churches I have visited here are very evangelical. There seem to be almost no “mainstream” churches here. Too bad - I’m too traditional for the “wave-you-hands-in-the-air-Jesus-is-your-buddy” kind of stuff. :s

I have to agree with Maoman. It seems to me that Taiwanese are tolerant of other religions because they aren’t particularly religious themselves. By that I mean that they don’t have so many organized religious groups. However, Taiwanese and mainlanders can be very imposing with their superstitious beliefs at certain times, and can show very little tolerance for deviation. I’ve come close to busting a gasket numerous time during Chinese New Year when I’ve been told that I absolutely cannot take a shower for three days or that I am not allowed to eat half of the things that I’d normally eat. For many of the Chinese I know, deviation from these superstitious traditions is not tolerated at all. They sometimes treat it as though you would be bringing bad luck down upon them if you break the rules. And that’s just CNY. One day when I have plenty of free time, I’m going to write a long account here about my Chinese funeral experience in my wife’s hometown in Guangdong. If you haven’t been to a redneck Chinese funeral, then you ain’t seen shit. After that funeral, I felt that I had graduated to a new leval of cultural understanding and tolerance. Yes, in some ways Taiwanese are tolerant of other religions, but they can be quite intolerant when others go against their superstitious beliefs and practices. I imagine that they could be extremely intolerant if they had more exposure to other religious groups.

Tolerance? Or apathy?

I think the reason the Chinese are tolerant of different religious beliefs is somewhere in the middle of what is being stated above. Yes, many Taiwanese /Chinese are ignorant of religious notions… but they are also tolerant (comparatively) when they are aware.

It could be that many are ignorant of particular notions simply because many do have an attitude as expressed by the first chapter of the Dao De Jing… the true way cannot be known, the name that is known is not the true name… And this same attitude could well explain why those who are aware are tolerant.

[quote=“tigerman”]

I think the reason the Chinese are tolerant of different religious beliefs is somewhere in the middle of what is being stated above. Yes, many Taiwanese /Chinese are ignorant of religious notions… but they are also tolerant (comparatively) when they are aware.

It could be that many are ignorant of particular notions simply because many do have an attitude as expressed by the first chapter of the Dao De Jing… the true way cannot be known, the name that is known is not the true name… And this same attitude could well explain why those who are aware are tolerant.[/quote]

I am not sure I would ascribe such “tolerance” to Taiwanese/Chinese belief in this text. I doubt most people know these texts that well or have some belief in them other than general superstition. maybe they learned to memorize this passage, but i think it would be a stretch to say this has shaped their religious outlook. It’s probably more due to the lack of historical patterns that existed say in Europe. e.g. no Wars of Religion, no significant problems of Church/State (apart from some isolated, but not far-reaching cases), Religious Persecution Laws (other than outlawing threats to government, or divesting religious institutions of their wealth), and no strong immersion in a religion that does not tolerate/exclude other religions. And probably most importantly, because this part of the world is very polytheistic. There is no monotheism other that what’s imported. You have thousands of land, sky, water divinities/kama, hundreds of buddhist-related saints and saintesses and other intercessors (Kuan Yin probably the most famous), legions of ghosts, a pantheon and/or bureaucracy of gods and demons in heaven and in hell, you got your ancestor gods, you got your culture heroes deified (Guan Yu deified as god of war). What’s another few more gods and why should it matter that your neighbour is a daoist and you’re a buddhist (unless you’re a strict monotheist, and then all these people are going to hell).
famous saying: A Chinese wears the cap of a Confucian, robes of a Daoist, and sandals of a Buddhist.
so in conclusion, i will see you in purgatory.

Actually, if I was a bit unclear, I only meant that the first chapter of the Dao De jing could well have influenced a general attitude in Chinese religious thinking, or thinking about religion. No doubt many Taiwanese do things that reflect Confucian doctrine without knowing the exact Confucian text where such action was first introduced or confirmed as appropriate.

I think that in a very general but profound way, Confucianism and Daoism have influenced the Chinese and it is not difficult for me to imagine that the first chapter of the Dao De Jing was very profoundly influencial… just look at how it differs in concept from Western notions of knowing God. When a person thinks he knows God… indeed feels that he has a personal relationship with God, his level of tolerance for others with different types of relationships or interpretations of God will be quite low, at least compared to the guy who admits that he, as an human, cannot possibly know or understand God or the Way.

I’m not discounting entirely the reasons that you cited… (although there were periods of religious oppression in China)… but just suggesting that the reason that Chinese religious history differed from European religious history is due in some part to the very real influence philosphical Daoism has had on the Chinese… even if many individual Chinese people are unaware of the first chapter of the Dao De Jing.

Although Daoism and Confucianism has affect Chinese culture in profound ways, i would not compare them in this way meaning you say taiwanese put into practice confucian doctrine without having read the LiJi. Confucian is a secular code of conduct that has dominated the Chinese in many aspects of life. its effects are much more concretely visible. I concede that while Daoist influence is harder and subtler to identify making it harder to argue our points and this first chapter is one of the most famous and analyzed portions of the DDJ, i am not so sure that this passage impacts our particular discussion in the manner you mention. What is easily identifiable, in terms of effect, is more how Daoist adherents emphasize its eternal life stuff and certain superstitions, meaning that most of what has filtered down to the masses (since these esoteric texts were only available to the literate and then not all of them), rather than metaphysical aspects. these lines you quoted are more mystical and esoteric than other parts of the Dao De Jing, and definitely more than LiJi, etc. Say it to the average chinese person, they will think it mere hocus pocus from long ago without meaning to them in contemporary times. your point that Daoism has insinuated itself into the pysche of Chinese, while true, is not really a strong one inasfar as the text you quoted and the discussion at hand. and generally speaking, i think it would be erroneous of you to talk about this passage and how people feel about God or the tolerance of other gods or different perceptions of the same god in the same context. Daoism is not really a religion in this traditional sense. It is not even agnostic nor atheist I would contend.

oh i see what you mean. philosophical daoism made it possible for subsequent religious history in China to take the shape and path it did in a subtle, but enduring way. point taken, but i contend that it really is, largely the absence of a strong monotheistic culture (judeo-christian) rather than the early development, presence, and effect of Daoism that made this atmosphere possible. Meaning compared to the former, the latter really is insignificant, but still valid to some extent. and i would also contend that the nature of religious persecution in China was vastly different from Europe (e.g. lack of Christian Schism, altogether a different Church-State relationship, religio-political power of Church to validate or excommunicate the Sovereign). Religious persecution in China often meant that the temples were too rich, the monks and nuns too numerous and living off the land and labor of others, threatened imperial power and had to be taken down. While this existed also with certain monk sects in Europe (templars, some Cistercians, whathaveyou-ians) or for political reasons like Church of England, religious persecution in Europe was largely directed on the basis of religious doctrine e.g. heresy, intolerance, blasphemy, etc. Daoist priests were never persecuted cuz they were heretics. at most, they might be regarded as nutty wackos eating roots and drinking weird potions to find eternal life or heckled as charlatans selling miracle cures. Buddhists individuals were never persecuted on the basis of their beliefs. There really is not doctrine of heresy as far as i know in China, no Edict of Worms, no Peace of Augsburg, no Puritans running away, no persecution of heretical sects like hugenots, calvinists, etc.
ok, long ramble.

The tolerance of Taiwan is one of my favorite things about the island. My students never bother me about Jesus. The only missionaries I see are foreigners and they almost never bother me. My kid goes to Morrison Christian Academy, but nobody there has ever mentioned Jesus to me. Unlike the secular school in the US, where there was always a passel of idjits for Jesus running around spreading their confused facist version of Christianity. What a relief this island is sometimes!

Vorkosigan

Jack,

I’m enjoying this discussion.

[quote=“Jack Burton”]Although Daoism and Confucianism has affect Chinese culture in profound ways, I would not compare them in this way meaning you say Taiwanese put into practice confucian doctrine without having read the LiJi. Confucian is a secular code of conduct that has dominated the Chinese in many aspects of life. its effects are much more concretely visible…

Daoism is not really a religion in this traditional sense. It is not even agnostic nor atheist I would contend.[/quote]

I went to a Benedictan Catholic college and we were required to take 12 credits of religion courses. The first course was titled “Exploring Religious Meaning” and the brother who taught the course basically tried to make us understand that religion is any specific system of belief about deity, often involving rituals, a code of ethics, and a philosophy of life. Thus Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Native American Spirituality, and Neopaganism are all religions. However, so are Agnosticism, Atheism, Humanism, Ethical Culture, and Daoism and Confucianism, because these also contain a “belief about deity” … their belief is that they do not know whether a deity exists, or they have no knowledge of God, or they sincerely believe that God does not exist, or they believe that certain gods exist. The Dao may not be completely similar to the idea that Christians, Moslems and Jews, as well as Agnostics and Athiests have regarding God… but if the Dao is some sort of force, it is similar to the idea of a prime mover, and I would argue similar also to some notion of God. Even the early Gnostic Christians had radically different ideas of what God was compare to traditional/contemporary notions of God.

OK. I think your points are very good… but I think that it would be neat to research the reasons that monotheisms did not evolve in China… could it be partly due to an attitude that any diety/divine/supernatural force cannot be understood, and as such, anyone who might advocate knowledge of a single god might have been regarded as a bit off the deep end, so to speak? I don’t know… I’m just wondering in text.

Yes, I think you’re right on this.

Is that really the stuff that religion is made of? If it works for you that’s great, and I have to admit it’s enjoyable to know for esoteric value alone, but who’s to say that laying some food around and making some loud noises aren’t as valuable?

[quote=“tigerman”]Jack,

I’m enjoying this discussion.

I went to a Benedictan Catholic college and we were required to take 12 credits of religion courses. The first course was titled “Exploring Religious Meaning” and the brother who taught the course basically tried to make us understand that religion is any specific system of belief about deity, often involving rituals, a code of ethics, and a philosophy of life. Thus Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Native American Spirituality, and Neopaganism are all religions. However, so are Agnosticism, Atheism, Humanism, Ethical Culture, and Daoism and Confucianism, because these also contain a “belief about deity”

but I think that it would be neat to research the reasons that monotheisms did not evolve in China.[/quote]

yes, this is interesting stuff.
first, if we want to talk definitions, i am surprised that you would consider religion to have such a large scope. especially with regard to Atheism, Humanism, and Confucianism. I would disagree that confucianism is a religion in the traditional sense. There is no “belief about deity” if we accept your parameters in confucianism. it is a secular code of conduct, albeit also involving rituals related to the afterlife, to death, to dead family members. but the emphasis is on an ordered society, with correct behavior, correct relationships, and triumph of the pen over the sword. confucianism is not incompatible with religion. it just glorifies some golden age and denied confucius’ contemporary period.
if your Benedictine teacher wants to incorporate many belief systems into this penumbra (haha) of Religion, it’s a nice gesture, but I disagree that this definition fits into our argument. of course, personally i don’t think Buddhism is a religion in the sense there is some god(s)(though I am not saying this interpretation of ‘religion’ is necessary for the present argument). Popular buddhism perhaps since that incorporates and co-opted former beliefs (like how Christianity co-opted local deities by making them into saints etc). Original Buddhism is atheistic since Buddha did not believe in god(s), only that somehow human beings are caught in a wheel of reincarnation. there is no actor who made this wheel, no creator who made man, no blind women weaving fates of men. even buddha, though worshipped, is not a deity. he was a man who experienced satori and realized nirvana. but this didn’t turn him into a god.

As for evolution of monotheism, it should helpful to note that monotheism is the exception and not the rule. the hebrews are one of the very few who have this idea. polytheism was the norm in europe, asia, and just about every culture and location. the legacy of jesus, god of abraham, etc. is truly unique in this world, for better or for worse. I am not sure I can name any religion that practices monotheism. maybe zoroastrianism, but arguably their concepts were borrowed by the hebrews. Apparently, even the monotheism of the hebrews was because the zoroaster influence during the time of the Babylonian exile. it has been argued that the hebrews once practiced monotheism (Elohim being plural for example)
as for your question, look at the reverse. why did polytheism spring up in every land and time, but as far as we know, why monotheism only in one place. i think it is much more natural for human beings to conceive of polytheism to think of a sun god, a sky god, a goddess of trees, god of death, to personify everything concept and thing in the real world. with this anthropomorphism it is not surprising that most old religions had pantheons of families of gods. as men have families, so must gods. the greeks, the egyptians, the plains indians, the vikings, etc. it seems that monotheism needs some step, some divorce from polytheism, some radical thought process and really a revolution in religion.

Religion is the result of the ignorant attempting to explain the unknown. :unamused: