[quote=“the bear”]I’m actually quite moved to see Taiwanese speaking sense on this issue for once.…I’ve argued against use of the term for years and been amazed at the number of people who argue it is a term of respect as in “oh but we admire your sharp noses”. Offense is in the nose of the one being addressed as is pointed out in these articles. And offense is definitely taken…the fact that it is seen as humorous is the give away…it is never respectful to make fun of someones appearance. :liar:
Plus what is doubly offensive is that in most cases people use the term in the presumption that the dumb foreigner cannot understand it since it is Taiwanese.[/quote]
Yes, bear, this is key. As more and more Taiwanese hear our voices here and there, they are getting it and are willing to say so in public. I think when they realize how much the word is grating to our ears, they will stop using it on that basis. But they need to hear it from us. Unfortunately, they don’t read the English newspapers or the English expat forums, so very little info gets exchanged. But with these professors speaking out in Mandarin in the local Mandarin language newspapars, there might be a sea change. In 100 years… 
[quote=“the chief”]
I also am disgusted at the ongoing acceptance of this.
Don’t give me that bullshit about “Oh, in Taiwan culture there’s no insult intended”.
My ass.
Anyone who’s ever caught a local out who was smugly using the term in the bumpkin-esque assurance that no White Monkey would understand because it’s in Taiwanese has seen that momentary flash of embarrassment and discomfort…[/quote]
You got it, Chief. A friend in Berkley, Taiwanese man stuyding for PHD in physics there, from Taipei, tells me:
“I admit that ADOAH is not all compliments. part of it was joke, but without ill intentions, i promise.”
But he adds:
“i think we need some time to amend this historical mistake.”
and the the kicker, this from a Taiwanese national who GETS it:
'Don’t worry, things will change with this adoah term. We Taiwanese have everything but guts - these forum threads I hope could invoke some consciences in my fellow countrymen. ’
1,2 3 - blam! he got it!
[quote=“the chief”]West and when a Taiwanese customer comes in, yelling across the grill:
“The chicken burger’s for the slanty-eyed yellowface”
No offence intended, of course…[/quote]
Of course not. The use of “slanty” clearly shows it is used as a term of “endearment”.
As in I love the slanty curves of the new 911 Porsche Turbo.
[quote=“Bubba 2 Guns”]I started using the word “Jap” to refer to the Japanese after hanging out with Aussies-someone pointed out that this was racist so I stopped. It was more of an abbreviation thing. Like, Uni., Eski etc. I’m sure the Japanese have a nice word to describe foreigners though.
. I don't think the words like Lao-Wai or Adogah have any racist intent.[/quote]
Neither does JAP. My aunt is Jap and nobody ever got upset about her bein an JAP an all. And my cousins were lucky to get JAP food for lunch instead of the shite we had.
JAP (all-caps) = Jewish American Princess
According to what I have heard and had verified by several Taiwanese, A-dok-a originally meant something like Christian or missionary (阿督仔, 督 as in 基督教, Christianity) because most white faces around used to be missionaries. It is a homophone to “pointed nose” or however you prefer to translate it and has now taken on that meaning as there are fewer and fewer missionaries around.
Her Husband, above. I heard that explanation too. Will post later on that. Good point. That are LOTS of explanations going around. Which one is the correct one, who knows.
One question: Does ADOGAH/ADOAH refer to Western women, too, or it is just used for males?
Here are two comments, one from a longstay Westerner here, one from a Taiwan-born Harvard-educated Taiwanese man here:
Western Man: "Funny how some Taiwanese who defend the word ADOAH claim that no one will ever say “Adogah” to our faces. Not just my nephews and nieces do it…, but strangers – and even so-called TV “entertainers” will shout it out on their shows…And I don’t know if I mentioned this, but no matter how many people say that “Adogah doesn’t mean ‘big nose,’ that in fact, according to them it means ‘high nose,’” …we still don’t say “high nose” in English,… so “big nose” is the correct translation for English. "
Taiwanese man educated at Harvard, with lots of Western friends in Taipei: “I’m aware of the term, adoah, BUT I had no idea it meant ‘‘big nosed people’’,… I don’t use it and neither do my circle of friends living in metropolitan Taipei. …From what I understand it’s supposed to be a somewhat endearing catch-all nickname, …but if the recipient finds it insulting, then sure, we Taiwanese should stop using it.”
Taiwanese man tells me:
[i]"You guys say on your forums and blogs that mention examples where even the in-laws would call their western son-in-laws as “阿兜仔” to the face. I concur with you that, even called in an affection way, …“阿兜仔” should never be used by the in-laws or anyone else when interact directly.
The only exception is as I mentioned earlier: as a joke among friends as long as the western friend does not mind. Also, if the western names are too much for the in-laws’ heads to handle, a personalized Taiwanese nickname or an abbreviated, easy to pronounced English name should be provided to them. Otherwise, it’s pretty awkward for the older generation to squeeze out names like Frederick, Christopher, Leonardo, etc. "[/i]
[Some people are admitting the truth, finally.]
Her Husband, I heard this, from a trusted Taiwanese newspaper editor, no less:
" I think it’s a misunderstanding. “Atoah” means 阿督仔 that is because
when foreigners first came to Taiwan. Most of them were priests or
信基督. So they were called “atoah”. Because of a similar pronounciation,
“atoah” transforms into “big nose.” The definitions of “atoah” not
necessarily bad…"
[quote=“Cola”]Taiwanese man tells me:
" …it’s pretty awkward for the older generation to squeeze out names like Frederick, Christopher, Leonardo, etc. "[/quote]
That’s why we have Fred, Chris, and Leo.
Another POV, this time from a Taiwanese friend who tells me re the Christian missionary meaning of the word: hogwash, she says, that is to say:
[i]"I don’t think so.
Actually, Taiwanese people can’t really tell the difference between Catholicism and Christian religion. They both called them “麵粉教” (flour religion) in early time, because the church gave relief such as flour, milk powder or clothes to people since Taiwanese were poor at that time.
I don’t think people would use such a formal term “基督” as spoken language."[/i]
It’s not about the origin of a word, but the intent as it is presently used. Most, if not all, racially sensitive words had innocent beginnings. Take the word “kaffir” for example. Most people who know of and who hear this word today will assume it is a derogatory word to refer to black people, especially in South Africa.
[quote]Kaf⋅ir /ˈkæfər, ˈkeɪfər, ˈkɑ-/
–noun, plural -irs, (especially collectively) -ir.
- Also called [color=#FF0000]Nuristani[/color]. a member of an Indo-European people of Nuristan.
- (lowercase) Islam. [color=#FF0000]an infidel or unbeliever[/color].
- Also called [color=#FF0000]kafir corn[/color]. [color=#BF00FF]a grain sorghum, Sorghum bicolor caffrorum, having stout, short-jointed, leafy stalks, introduced into the U.S. from southern Africa.[/color]
Origin:
1795–1805; < Ar; see Kaffir[/quote]
But the origin of the word referring to Nuristani’s, non-believers in Islam, or a name for a particular type of Southern African corn has long ago fallen by the wayside. Today the meaning is more often defined as:
[quote]Kaf·fir also Kaf·ir (kāf’ər)
n. pl. Kaffir or Kaf·firs also Kafir or Kaf·irs
- [color=#FF0000]Offensive[/color]
- A Xhosa.
- [color=#FF0000]often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person.[/color]
- Kafir A Nuristani.
- also kaffir Islam An infidel.
[Arabic kāfir, infidel; see giaour.][/quote]
In the Cape Colony it first came into use when referring to the Xhosa tribe during what was then known as the Kaffir Wars between British and especially Boer Commando farmers and the Xhosa. Later it became a general word to refer to all black peoples of South Africa.
If I call a non Muslim guy a kaffir, it’s not going to help when I say, “I didn’t mean anything bad. I just meant you aren’t Muslim.”
Adoga “sighting” of the day, hilarious, even:
a young boy, freshmen in high school, son of journalist parents in Kaohsiung, Taiwanese all, tells me today in email, when I asked him if he will be attending the World Games there and maybe try to interact with the visiting foreign reporters and atheletes there, in a friendly and positive way, of course, he writes back in English:
I want to go to the World game,but most of my friends don’t want to,so~…
…Well,I really don’t think I can translate for the GAMES press section,because they choose they translate person they need already…
… Will you go to the world game?.. I think the price of the ticket is cheap for a game…,I think there most be lots of 阿凸仔 comming to Taiwan now!
He really wrote that in Chinese characters. He is convinced the word means “foreigner”. I told him to ask his father what is REALLY means…
[quote=“Cola”]Adoga “sighting” of the day, hilarious, even:
a young boy, freshmen in high school, son of journalist parents in Kaohsiung, Taiwanese all, tells me today in email, when I asked him if he will be attending the World Games there and maybe try to interact with the visiting foreign reporters and atheletes there, in a friendly and positive way, of course, he writes back in English:
I want to go to the World game,but most of my friends don’t want to,so~…
…Well,I really don’t think I can translate for the GAMES press section,because they choose they translate person they need already…
… Will you go to the world game?.. I think the price of the ticket is cheap for a game…,I think there most be lots of 阿凸仔 comming to Taiwan now!
He really wrote that in Chinese characters. He is convinced the word means “foreigner”. I told him to ask his father what is REALLY means…[/quote]
I like being called 阿凸仔 it’s not offensive at all… really it isnt.
When will people learn that their intentions are irrelevant: only the effects of what they say are important. Are we really that backward as a species that the majority of us think that this is a complex issue?
[quote=“Satellite TV”]
I like being called 阿凸仔 it’s not offensive at all… really it isnt.[/quote]
It’s good to hear other points of view here. It’s true, not all Westerners in Taiwan dislike the word as spoken in Taiwanese. Others have told me similar things, S-TV. It’s good to get all points of view. It’s not an open and shut case. Quite a few expats have told me they don’t mind the term at all.
Here’s more I heard today, both from Taiwanese bloggers:
I agree that adoah is NOT a good word to use for foreigners… In fact, this word isn`t meaning foreigner but Caucasian or white people. A word Huai-coh-lhen(外國人) in Mandarin means foreigner at first, but develops the other meaning as adoah or a-tok-a by Ban-Lam-Gu(Taiwanese) speaker who use huai-coh-lhen(外國人) in place of adoah in Mandarin, but without any other same word.
Although we use this word without any other meaning or bad intention, we should not name other one with his body features.
Another bloke says:
[b]"Trust me, A-TOK-A is a very ordinary word completely. if you want to see some bad words when Taiwanese say to foreigners, I can tell you let you understand and protect yourself.
「
阿啄仔番(a-tok-a-HUAN)
紅毛番(ang-mo-HUAN)
西洋番(se-iunn-HUAN)
死番仔(si-HUAN-a)
白番仔(peh-HUAN-a)
黑番仔(oh-HUAN-a)
洋鬼子(in chinese)
死老外(in chinese)
白豬(in chinese)
」
above words are really bad and serious words, but very very very few times we can hear those words, actuality even no Taiwanese use that, but we just know those words. I just type that let you guys understand.
someday, if someone say those words to you, you can kick his ass, haha.[/b]
NOTE: what do those words above MEAN? are they really so BAD? Translations please!
Loose translations:
[quote=“Cola”]阿啄仔番 (a-tok-a-HUAN) Pointy-nosed barbarian
紅毛番 (ang-mo-HUAN) Red-haired barbarian
西洋番 (se-iunn-HUAN) Western barbarian
死番仔 (si-HUAN-a) Bloody barbarian
白番仔 (peh-HUAN-a) White barbarian
黑番仔 (oh-HUAN-a) Black barbarian
洋鬼子 (in Chinese) Western devil
死老外 (in Chinese) Bloody foreigner
白豬 (in Chinese) White pig[/quote]
番 means savage or barbarian - it is used for any non-Han peoples; for example the Taiwanese aborigines are still called 番仔 by some Han Taiwanese.
死 literally means “dead” but as a prefix means something like “bloody” or “fucking” (but not as strong as the latter).
Are they that bad? It’s all about intent. I’ve heard 死老外 between friends joking around, and 紅毛 is often used in Singapore and other Hokkien communities without any wounding intent. Then again, I’ve heard English people who can make “American” sound like the vilest curse.
Taffy, another word I heard recently for white women in Taiwan, they are called GIM MO AE, in Taiwanese, it means “golden hair woman” but i was told by my informants that it is not a polite word to use. Why, if it only means BLONDE WOMAN or golden hair girl, why is that a slur? And yet I was told – by a Taiwanese gentleman who was not afraid to speak the truth to me – that GIM MO AE is not a good word to use and is seldom used today.
Did anyone ever call you that?