Taiwan's birth rate (fertility rate)

Life Dating & Relationships
1

Statistics say that Taiwan’s fertility rate is an average of around 1,1 child per woman. Other developed countries in Asia have similar rates (like, SKorea, Japan, Singapore,…). Unfortunately, this rate is too low, and may cause a population aging in the future.

My question is to know what is the first cause of this poor rate in Taiwan?
Is it because:

-Most couples prefer to have one only child?

-A half of the female population doesn’t have children, and another half has children?

-Having more than one child is too expensive?

-people marry later so it’s not possible anymore to give birth to children?

Some of you live in Taiwan, maybe you can explain the reasons of this demographic issue :bow:

2

I think most people just want to have a son, and yeah, the advances in prenatal screening and availability of sex-selective abortion allow them to actually get what they want the first (and only) time.

Not sure if there’s any data to support this but if it’s true then that could certainly be part of the explanation.

Having any number of children is expensive, primarily because there’s next to no maternity leave, nurseries and kindergartens are commercially-priced, etc. The mother needs to quit her job possibly jeopardizing her career, get a nanny or push the “problem” on the grandparents (which I believe is what most commonly happens).

Heard that mentioned but not sure about it really, people marry later everywhere.

My (uneducated) guess is that it’s a combination of the factors you mentioned plus probably that:

[ul][li] People spend most of their lives in the workplace, much more than in other countries.[/li]
[li] Many adult people never move out and keep living with their parents.[/li]
[li] Traditional culture makes marriage an unattractive pursuit for financially-independent women (the culture has it that the wife needs to serve the whole family of the husband, with whom they usually live in one household or in close proximity) and also puts some preconditions on men (who are expected to own an apartment to be marriageable), which are much more difficult to fulfil in a contemporary society than they used to be.[/li]
[li] It used to be advantageous to have more children as they were the best insurance/retirement policy; nowadays though, they are primarily an immediate cost, and people’s choices reflect that.[/li][/ul]
Some of these factors apply not only to Taiwan though, so it’d be interesting to know which one is the key here (if any). Might be a start of an interesting discussion. :bow:

3

Well, how many children have you produced? If the answer is ‘none’, then you are the cause. :wink:

Seriously though, women are better educated now, and less desiring of a traditional homemaker role. Pressures to study all the time rather than develop hobbies and social activities means some teens aren’t getting out there to develop the social skills needed for later dating. Long hours at work after graduation and no hobbies other than TV and internet surfing similarly put a damper on meeting potential mates. At the same time, the traditional desire of women to marry up means there are few men who are ‘up’ there, relatively speaking, given that the women are now better educated and gainfully employed, so better employment prospects for the women make working a more attractive prospect. Even those who do pair bond do so later, as is common with more highly educated women, that generally means few or no kids. The criminally high prices of real estate mean that even those who do pair bond need to bring in two incomes, leaving no time or energy to have kids. Childcare and education here are costly, too. Add to that the pressure to work long hours, the pressure not to ask for parental leave and sick leave (or not to take one’s vacation time), jobs that don’t offer full hours and benefits, necessitating working multiple crap PT jobs totaling long hours with no benefits, economic uncertainty and wage stagnation despite rising cost of living, and it’s not exactly an encouraging environment for child-bearing.

4

Average age for first birth in Taiwan is 33 years old. hence, chances for many kids are less than say, Latin America, where the average I think was 19 but rising.

Cases for multiple kids are often fueled by the tradition of having a male heir. So you have three, four girls… and the baby prince. This also has as a consequence over pampered males and resented females. Women who have worked hard all their lives, studied, got better grades, went abroad to study… and come back expected to fulfill the role of secondary mother to an overgrown baby, produce a male heir or be ostracized, and be mistreated by her mother in law because that is the way her own mother in law treated her. Hence, the traditional marriage is going the way of the dodo.

See why marrying foreigners is a popular option? And why foreigners have a birth rate higher than the average for the rest of the population?

In a nontraditional environment, as said, even with a supportive hubby and family, the costs of raising a child -daycare, education, buxiban, etc. - are really scary, so one is more than enough for many a budget.

5

There are 100 different answers to this question. In the case of me and my wife, the primary concern is money. My salary, while higher than a typical Taiwanese one, is not enough to support a family of three, and we don’t have any relatives who would be able to help us look after a hypothetical child (long story, don’t ask), meaning she would either have to stop working or we’d have to hire a babysitter.

I honestly don’t see the situation changing much in our near future considering the ceiling on salaries here. She’s 28 and I’m turning 29, so at least we still have a good amount of time to think things through.

6

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]There are 100 different answers to this question. In the case of me and my wife, the primary concern is money. My salary, while higher than a typical Taiwanese one, is not enough to support a family of three, and we don’t have any relatives who would be able to help us look after a hypothetical child (long story, don’t ask), meaning she would either have to stop working or we’d have to hire a babysitter.

I honestly don’t see the situation changing much in our near future considering the ceiling on salaries here. She’s 28 and I’m turning 29, so at least we still have a good amount of time to think things through.[/quote]

3-4 years, then fertility starts dropping for her.

I have done my part in overpopulating the place, so I am part of the solution, I guess.

7

[quote=“Mr He”]
3-4 years, then fertility starts dropping for her.

I have done my part in overpopulating the place, so I am part of the solution, I guess.[/quote]

Huh? I thought it was around 35.

8

Then 7 years. Whatever, better get the first through the system before the bird gets too long in the tooth.

9

We’re probably doing it wrong.

10

[quote=“Colorados”]Statistics say that Taiwan’s fertility rate is an average of around 1,1 child per woman. Other developed countries in Asia have similar rates (like, SKorea, Japan, Singapore,…). Unfortunately, this rate is too low, and may cause a population aging in the future.

My question is to know what is the first cause of this poor rate in Taiwan?
Is it because:

-Most couples prefer to have one only child?

-A half of the female population doesn’t have children, and another half has children?

-Having more than one child is too expensive?

-people marry later so it’s not possible anymore to give birth to children?

Some of you live in Taiwan, maybe you can explain the reasons of this demographic issue :bow:[/quote]

A mix of all of this. Plus, although the government is crying about the fertility rate, I don’t see them doing much.

11

[quote=“Bobarctor”][quote=“Colorados”]Statistics say that Taiwan’s fertility rate is an average of around 1,1 child per woman. Other developed countries in Asia have similar rates (like, SKorea, Japan, Singapore,…). Unfortunately, this rate is too low, and may cause a population aging in the future.

My question is to know what is the first cause of this poor rate in Taiwan?
Is it because:

-Most couples prefer to have one only child?

-A half of the female population doesn’t have children, and another half has children?

-Having more than one child is too expensive?

-people marry later so it’s not possible anymore to give birth to children?

Some of you live in Taiwan, maybe you can explain the reasons of this demographic issue :bow:[/quote]

A mix of all of this. Plus, although the government is crying about the fertility rate, I don’t see them doing much.[/quote]

to realistically combat anything like this they would need to stop with the government corruption in inflating real estate and make employers pay more. but i don’t see that happening anytime soon.

12

It should be clear to anyone who has spent more than a few years here that Taiwanese administrators don’t plan, they react. Oil crisis? Solve that quickly. Another oil crisis? Solve that one quickly and express concern. Yet another less than one month later? Better solve that quickly, too!

What they simply don’t think about is thinking ahead. This bad habit shows its ugly head in everything from (the lack of) urban planning to economic policies. Even candidates on the campaign trail rarely talk about broad vision but instead focus on either the completely abstract (Ma’s former slogan of opening “a golden decade,” mysteriously absent of late) or the pathetically immediate (whatever scandal is brewing).

13

Japan is struggling on all fronts:

[quote]Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s efforts to help women juggle work and family are hitting an obstacle: opposition to building new day care centers from residents who fear that the sound of children playing will spoil their quiet neighborhoods.

The number of Japanese children is falling due to the low birthrate, but many preschoolers are nonetheless on day care waiting lists because of the chronic shortage of facilities.

Abe has vowed to fix the problem as part of plans to get more women working to offset the shrinking, aging population and boost economic growth.

Doing so, however, may not be easy given that locals often greet plans for new day care centers with a NIMBY — or “not in my backyard” — reaction of the sort typically associated with proposals for facilities such as military bases or prisons.

Take Setagaya Ward, Tokyo, which has the longest day care waiting list in the nation, with more than 1,000 kids.

“We are trapped between parents who are crying out ‘we want day care centers built as soon as possible’ and those who say ‘we don’t need day care centers in our quiet neighborhoods,” Setagaya Ward Mayor Nobuto Hosaka in a recent blog entitled “Are Children’s Voices Noise, or the Sound of Hope?”

Setagaya Ward needs to build between 70 and 80 new centers over the next four years to accommodate an estimated 6,500 additional children who will need day care, according to Kota Tanaka, head of a 15-person team set up to speed up the process.
[/quote]
japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/1 … ECR71IcT5o

At least here in Taiwan they like renao and are used to the noise. Unless it is Black Sabbath on a Saturday morning, of course.

14

Wow. Maybe they should just splurge and get muzzles for all of them.

I can’t believe it’s that big of a deal. Sure, kids are loud when they’re outside, but only at 10:00 am, lunchtime, and 2:30 pm. (At least that’s what I remember my recess time being as a kid.) Maybe Japanese kids are super loud or something?

15

I noticed a lot of old people with young children when I was in Taiwan and I found it pretty strange, I did think that maybe the parents didn’t have time for them. My only idea is to de-centralize the country, everyone tries to live in Taipei (or Tokyo or Seoul, pick your country) and that drives up the cost of living which presents one of the largest obstacles to having more children. With modern internet and video-conferencing services, lots of jobs should be able to avoid the traditional, physical gatherings that require everyone to crowd into large cities.

16

I fully agree with decentralizing, but it’s actually not as big of a problem in Taiwan as you might think. Yes, 1/3 of the population lives in the Greater Taipei-Taoyuan area, but there are few places anywhere down the west coast on this island where you’d say things are rural by classic standards. It’s more about status than anything else – Taipei is cosmopolitan, other cities are secondary. Perhaps the creation of so many special municipalities will help boost the significance of other population centers in the future.

17

Yep, it’s about status and infrastructure and education as much as jobs. I knew people in Taichung whose kids lived in Taipei with the grandparents, aswell as the other way round of course.

I do think there’s a lot of room in Asia to move to off site working , it’s slow to start here.

18

[quote=“Icon”]Average age for first birth in Taiwan is 33 years old. hence, chances for many kids are less than say, Latin America, where the average I think was 19 but rising.

Cases for multiple kids are often fueled by the tradition of having a male heir. So you have three, four girls… and the baby prince. This also has as a consequence over pampered males and resented females. Women who have worked hard all their lives, studied, got better grades, went abroad to study… and come back expected to fulfill the role of secondary mother to an overgrown baby, produce a male heir or be ostracized, and be mistreated by her mother in law because that is the way her own mother in law treated her. Hence, the traditional marriage is going the way of the dodo.

See why marrying foreigners is a popular option? And why foreigners have a birth rate higher than the average for the rest of the population?

In a nontraditional environment, as said, even with a supportive hubby and family, the costs of raising a child -daycare, education, buxiban, etc. - are really scary, so one is more than enough for many a budget.[/quote]
Is it?
Most couples I see are Taiwanese.

19

About 7% of babies are born to a foreign mother taiwantoday.tw/ct.asp?xItem=218788&ctNode=413
Almost all Southeast Asians or mainland Chinese though

I am going to make a totally naive question that perhaps I will regret later, but as a childless person, can somebody explain to me WHY babies are expensive on a day to day basis? (that is, outside of the initial costs such as hospital fee, immunizations, etc)
I have comfortably lived off of 10,000 a month as a student (excluding housing), so if housing is about $15,000, I don’t see why 3 people can’t live on the remaining $35,000. This is assuming the breadwinner earns $50,000 which I guess might be a challenge for many in Taiwan, but certainly not impossible. I know a new police officer makes at least that much, as well as certain technical workers, finance, most entry level “foreigner” jobs (editor, English teacher). I mean, you’re not exactly jet-setting off to weekend shopping trips to Hong Kong on that kind of a budget but never want for anything. What am I missing? Diapers, formula?

Anyway, I’ve talked to Taiwanese about this before and lots of women seem to think raising children is a “burden”, something the feminist movement should have fixed. I agree women should have the freedom to make choices and definitely the huge son-based family is not something that makes any sense in a modern Taiwan, but I wish Taiwanese women wouldn’t throw the (proverbal and literal) baby out with the bathwater on this one. Nothing wrong with having a family. I guess the other issue here is lazy Taiwanese men not willing to pick up the slack and the Taiwanese solution to anything difficult is to avoid it rather than directly discuss the issue.

Personally I think the grandparents raising the kids in place of the actual parents is a huge problem. Old people just can’t move that fast to keep up with a child. All too often I see Amah just sitting there perhaps even dozing off while the kid runs around by him or herself. Sad. Not to mention, I wouldn’t necessarily trust my own grandparents to be on the up and up about various safety precautions, let alone the average Taiwanese grandparents (not that they’re bad people or anything, just victims of circumstance growing up in a very poor Taiwan)

The one thing that really makes my blood boil is when the parents take their kids out on the scooters without a helmet on. I live in Taipei so riding a scooter is basically NEVER necessary, ever. Then there’s the fact that you’ve got 3, even 4 people on that scooter which was made for 1, 2 tops. And you don’t even give your child a helmet, the one thing that might slightly protect them when you get blindsided by a taxi or blue truck? You might as well stick a huge “Please kill me” sign on your kid’s back.

20

Babies turn into kids and kids cost a bunch of money. Public preschool is shit here so almost everybody has to fork out for private schools. Thats 10,000-20,000 ntd/mth. Then you have to pay for extra health insurance for the kids, no subsidy for families. Everything costs more with kids, traveling anywhere, hotels costs, clothes, classes for this and that. You want to do anything it all costs at least twice as much as single/childless couples. There’s very little in the way of family discounts.
Theres almost no state support so that’s the biggest impediment to having kids, especially for single mothers.

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