Taiwan's international position (fully defined)

My Taiwanese friend heard on the radio today that some American in Taiwan has written a book in Chinese about the clarification of Taiwan’s international position and posted it on the internet.

Does anyone know the URL by any chance?

I am taking a one-on-one Chinese class in Hsinchu, and have been looking for some interesting reading material to delve into . . . . . . so I thought this might be just what the doctor ordered. My teacher typically recommends poetry, plays, and some historical treatises . . . . . . but I have been finding those less and less stimulating of late. Also, it would be good to be studying something which will enable me to talk intelligently with other people in Chinese about “current events” . . . . .

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Spend too much time talking with most locals about Hartzell’s ideas and you’ll most likely be either mumbling through a mouthful of broken teeth or writhing around in a strait jacket. Suggesting to most of the local worthies that Taiwan is a part of US territory is NOT the way to win friends and influence people.

Maybe not, but (to borrow a paraphrase) it beats sucking PLA dick at gunpoint.

Here’s the WSJ’s take on what international law says about Taiwan’s status:
eskimo.com/~liberty/WSJ-Tkac … to_US.html

There are no good theories about the international law status of Taiwan that provide for a vacuum of “ownership” of this territory. International law is just a much a creature of actual possession, statements made, consistent behavior over the years, etc. and not upon documents.

Taiwan’s best odds under international law would be to have a successful insurrection by its aboriginal peoples who could declare themselves “not Chinese” with a straight face. Of course that would never happen or work out – and anything outrageous like that would sorely tempt the PRC to step in.

Does it matter to the expat population? Most of which whose countries already officially recognize the PRC anyway. Why a foreigner in Taiwan would care one way or the other is beyond me. Enlighten me.

[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“MaPoDoFu”]
Maybe not, but (to borrow a paraphrase) it beats sucking PLA dick at gunpoint.[/quote]
Does it matter to the expat population? Most of which whose countries already officially recognize the PRC anyway. Why a foreigner in Taiwan would care one way or the other is beyond me. Enlighten me.[/quote]
Some of us care about more than our own rear ends. Even for those who don’t, the NTD has a much better exchange rate than China’s wastepaper.

[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“MaPoDoFu”]
Maybe not, but (to borrow a paraphrase) it beats sucking PLA dick at gunpoint.

[/quote]

Does it matter to the expat population? Most of which whose countries already officially recognize the PRC anyway. Why a foreigner in Taiwan would care one way or the other is beyond me. Enlighten me.[/quote]

Apart from Mapodofu’s answer, there is also the most obvious reason of all.

There are quite a few foreigners living in Taiwan married to a local man or woman. That means half our families live in Taiwan, and it also means many of us have children born and brought up here, going to school here, and maybe even having Taiwanese citizenship. Like most people, we don’t want our families to live under a Communist dictatorship.

You have now been enlightened.

[/quote]
Does it matter to the expat population? Most of which whose countries already officially recognize the PRC anyway. Why a foreigner in Taiwan would care one way or the other is beyond me. Enlighten me.[/quote]

What P said. Some of us here for the long haul with families, a house and so on. We don’t have citizenship but we have permanent residency or will have it soon.

[quote=“P”] Like most people, we don’t want our families to live under a Communist dictatorship.

You have now been enlightened.[/quote]

With all due respect, would it be that bad? Lots of foreign people have started families with locals in Hong Kong, but you don’t really hear complaints that much about “living under a Communist dictatorship.” No one took their houses or businesses away, there or Macao. Most foreigners in the mainland have a pretty cushy, privileged lifestyle anyway, as long as you are not doing missionary work. :frowning:

[quote=“Some people who think Taiwan independence isn’t a very good idea”]
Mass Demonstration March

[b]
Oppose Taiwan independence!
Save Taiwan!

Fight unemployment - We want jobs
Stop buying weapons - We want welfare
[/b]

Date: Sunday 7 September 2003
Assembly time: 12.30 p.m.
Assembly place: West gate, the Chiang Kai-Shek Memorial Hall, Taipei (on Zhongshan South Road opposite the National Library - nearest MRT station Chiang Kai-Shek Memorial Hall )
Route: Xinyi Road Sections 1 and 2
Destination: Daan Park

Demonstration permit number: Taipei Municipal Police permit no. 09239304000

Organizers: The Organizing Committee for Action to Oppose Taiwan Independence and Save Taiwan

Called by: The Alliance for the Reunification of China, The China Tide Association, The Taiwan Region Political Victims’ Mutual Aid Association, The National Daonan Overseas Chinese High School Alumni Association, The Huaxia Political Strategy Research Society, The Labor Party, The Labor Rights Association, “Straits Review” Magazine, Renjian Publications

Contact address: 7th Floor, No. 50-1, Section 1, Xinsheng South Road, Taipei, Taiwan 100, China
Tel: +886-2-2321 4125 Fax: +886-2-2321 0397
Contact person for English inquiries: Mr. Wang Jinping[/quote]

[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“P”] Like most people, we don’t want our families to live under a Communist dictatorship.

You have now been enlightened.[/quote]

With all due respect, would it be that bad? Lots of foreign people have started families with locals in Hong Kong, but you don’t really hear complaints that much about “living under a Communist dictatorship.” No one took their houses or businesses away, there or Macao. Most foreigners in the mainland have a pretty cushy, privileged lifestyle anyway, as long as you are not doing missionary work. :frowning:[/quote]
Hmm. Flicka, why are YOU in Taiwan? You have a choice, after all. Even if you’re Taiwanese.

As far as Hong Kong, the PRC has only had control for six years. People are already marching in protest over the recent attempt by Tung Chee Hwa to clamp down on their freedom of political speech. The economy has soured, property values have dropped, and entire sections of Vancouver BC are taken up by wealthy Hong Kong Chinese who fled. Yeah, people are making do, but life is not as good as before, and it will probably only get worse.

[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“P”] Like most people, we don’t want our families to live under a Communist dictatorship.

You have now been enlightened.[/quote]

With all due respect, would it be that bad? Lots of foreign people have started families with locals in Hong Kong, but you don’t really hear complaints that much about “living under a Communist dictatorship.” No one took their houses or businesses away, there or Macao. Most foreigners in the mainland have a pretty cushy, privileged lifestyle anyway, as long as you are not doing missionary work. :frowning:[/quote]

I am of course not talking about me as a foreigner. Like you, I don’t think I personally would be that affected. When I talked about half my family living here, I meant my extended family, i.e. my whole family on my wife’s side. Being Taiwanese, they would be affected much more than I would, and that is the (obvious) reason why I care about the future of Taiwan.

[quote=“Juba”][quote=“Some people who think Taiwan independence isn’t a very good idea”]
Mass Demonstration March

[b]
Oppose Taiwan independence!
Save Taiwan!

Fight unemployment - We want jobs
Stop buying weapons - We want welfare
[/b]

Date: Sunday 7 September 2003
Assembly time: 12.30 p.m.
Assembly place: West gate, the Chiang Kai-Shek Memorial Hall, Taipei (on Zhongshan South Road opposite the National Library - nearest MRT station Chiang Kai-Shek Memorial Hall )
Route: Xinyi Road Sections 1 and 2
Destination: Da’an Park

Demonstration permit number: Taipei Municipal Police permit no. 09239304000

Organizers: The Organizing Committee for Action to Oppose Taiwan Independence and Save Taiwan

Called by: The Alliance for the Reunification of China, The China Tide Association, The Taiwan Region Political Victims’ Mutual Aid Association, The National Daonan Overseas Chinese High School Alumni Association, The Huaxia Political Strategy Research Society, The Labor Party, The Labor Rights Association, “Straits Review” Magazine, Renjian Publications

Contact address: 7th Floor, No. 50-1, Section 1, Xinsheng South Road, Taipei, Taiwan 100, China
Tel: +886-2-2321 4125 Fax: +886-2-2321 0397
Contact person for English inquiries: Mr. Wang Jinping[/quote][/quote]

:unamused:

with all due respect, yes.

besides that, sure China’s playing nice now to fool the suckers here in Taiwan how cuddley they are, but they still couldn’t resist trying to chip away at personal freedom. we just saw 500,000 people marching in the streets over it in Hong Kong.

I just noticed that the CIA factbook lists the name of the ROC as Taiwan and the capital as Taipei. They don’t mention “Republic of China” at all. However, the people are considered “Chinese,” not “Taiwanese.”
cia.gov/cia/publications/fac … /2110.html

On the home page of the CIA factbook, when you select a country, the drop down list shows “Taiwan” at the very bottom; it is the only country listed outside of alphabetical order.

Thanks, MaPoDoFu, Daltongan, and P for the insight. I forgot a bit about the Hong Kong economy. It still looks like a busy place, but then you talk to people that are freelancing out of their homes, etc., because their job was axed. P - aren’t your immediate Taiwan relatives allowed to leave with you? Can’t they get green cards or entry into whatever country you are from? How does that work. Why am I here, MaPo? I had family here, but they all went back to the US.

But didn’t they win? Article 23 is dead now, no?

Yes, I guess they probably could get residency back home. But that’s yet another reason why I care about what happens to Taiwan in future - if becoming part of China is so bad it means having to leave, then I certainly don’t want that to happen to Taiwan.

But didn’t they win? Article 23 is dead now, no?[/quote]

Only until after the Taiwan presidential elections. :smiling_imp: Beijing doesn’t want to screw up the chances of their candidates Lien and Soong.