Taiwan's love for the Land of the Rising Sun

Politics Taiwan Politics
1

I don’t want to generalize, but it seems that many Taiwanese have a special affection for Japan.

I have discussed this with many different people here, and the normal answers are “Japan has great technology,” “Japan is very wealthy,” “Japanese food is delicious” “Japanese style is very good” and so on. It seems many Taiwanese admire these deservedly impressive aspects of Japanese culture.

There also exists a feeling amongst certain politicans that a close alliance with Japan may insulate Taiwan from Chinese aggression. Clearly, the current administration is very pro-Japanese and Li Denghui, well…

What’s quite interesting however, is that Taiwan was a colony of Japan, and normally colonies don’t feel a special affection for their colonizers. Having lived in France, I’d say Algerians, Moroccans, and Tunisians are quite ambivalent about France and many aspects of French culture, as are the black Africans there, and people from the Caribbean islands.

Certainly, it’s normal for colonized countries to adopt certain aspects of the mother country’s culture, but to so identify with the former colonizer, long after its departure, is a situation that seems fairly unique to Taiwan.

I don’t know enough about the Japanese Colonial Period to safely comment on the quality of life most Taiwanese enjoyed at that time, but i do know that the Japanese built up the country quite a bit. They certainly constructed some nice buildings that are still in use today.

However, at the same time the Japanese were occupying Taiwan they were ravaging China. Most active on this forum are aware of the Rape of Nanjing, and the savagery of Imperial Japan. After I read the book and saw some photos from the Rape I was nearly sick with disgust, as I’m sure many of you were. Japan has also never apologized appropriately for its crimes.

People here are mainly ethnically Chinese. How can certain politicans so openly advocate friendship with Japan, even suggesting being a part of Japan, even if not openly (Li Denghui) when Japan brutally slaughtered so many Chinese people? I’m sure there are people on this island who came over from China and suffered from Japanese aggression, as well as native Taiwanese who suffering during the Japanese Colonial Period.

Also, the DPP likes to focus the public’s attention on the White Terror, but they conveniently fail to point out that the Guomindang were facing a signifcant threat of annexation by the CCP, and that Communist spies had infiltrated Taiwan. That doesn’t excuse the imprisonment and execution of innocent civilians. However, it does shed some light on why the Guomindang’s reaction at the time may have been extreme.

Meanwhile, let’s look at the statistics: how many people were massacred by the Japanese, and how many in Nanjing? Japanese soldiers ripping out fetuses from pregnant women with their swords? Babies thrown in boiling water? Dogs ripping the intenstines out of people half-buried in the ground? Iris Zhang says 300,000 perished during the Nanjing Massacre. This is a significantly larger number of deaths than occurred during the whole of CKS’s reign.

CKS’s crimes are not excusable, but it’s interesting how the DPP and TSU focus so little attention on the far greater crimes of the Japanese as colonial occupiers in Taiwan and China while tirelessly condeming the Guomindang and CKS.

2

[quote=“Etheorial”]
What’s quite interesting however, is that Taiwan was a colony of Japan, and normally colonies don’t feel a special affection for their colonizers. [/quote]

Ever heard of the British Commonwealth?

And how many did Chiang the Chiang family murder in Taiwan? Nanjing is a long way from Taiwan. People here in Taiwan lost their fathers, brothers and sons. And they remember.

And don’t forget, Chiang was simply practicing for the future when he had his opponents fed alive into furnices in Shanghai in 1927. Read up on the fate of General Yang Hucheng. Chiang had Yang (along with members of his family) strangled with piano-wire…and filmed before he fled to Taiwan. This was done at “Happy Valley”…Chiang’s secret police HQ/concentration camp located outside of Chungking. Details of Happy Valley can be found in Adm. Milton Miles book “A Different Kind of War”.

3

Identifying with Japan is a way that some people use to pretend they are not Chinese – to pretend they are better than Chinese. They need to feel they have a chance against the mainland (Japan beat China in naval warfare about 100 years ago). Psychotic projection, really.

4

Oh, yes you do. It forms the essence of your polarizing style of argument.

If you can’t distinguish between a basic annexation of territory by treaty and a colonial administration such as the British exercised in various parts of the world, then what hope do you have of understanding everything that followed?

If you care to drag in Nanking atrocities to criticize Taiwanese anger over KMT atrocities in Taiwan, then I’m afraid you more or less close off any chance of reasonable discussion. It’s simply ridiculous.

5

Actually, in 1938, Taiwan has the highest per capita income in the Japanese Empire. Immediately after Taiwan was taken by the KMT, Taiwan had the highest per capita income as well as the highest literacy rate of any province in China. None of this was due in any part to the “leadership” of the KMT.

6

And may I add one thing -

This fixation with Japan is by no means unique to Taiwan. Japan has for a long time essentially been the Asian equivalent of America. For most of the West, the hip and cool and trendy comes from the US. For East Asia (at least), it’s Japan. They’re obsessed with it in HK, in Taiwan, I think South Korea was going really mad for it not long ago, and while they won’t admit it, I wouldn’t be surprised to the Japanese stuff being tres cool for those with any cash in the mainland (in between governmental bogeymanning).

7

Is the love of everything Japanese that some people here have now (particularly young people/teenagers) really linked to anything political, though? Some of the older people might love and hate it still based on its presence here (I have two friends who aren’t very fond of Japanese, mainly because their parents weren’t).

Most of the young people I know like the place more because the fashion sense is so much cooler, the music is better, for manga or anime, or for whatever pop culture stuff is flying out of the place at the moment.
However, as soon as you start talking politics there are widely, widely diverse views on the issue. Even though more of my friends dislike Korea, I still avoid mentioning Japan to a few of my friends, particularly those who see themselves as more Chinese than Taiwanese.

So, what it boils down to…depending on age, political association, gender…yep, extreme generalization there. :smiley: :raspberry:

8

But that is just pop culture. There is no political affinity towards Japan in HK, even though Japan controlled the territory in WWII.

There is no affinity towards the British on HK either, who colonized the place for 100 years.

Most HK accept the fact they are Chinese, that the territory is under PRC rule, and they can use the SAR system to ensure their livelihood.

There is a HK pride that they are more cosmopolitan than you average Chinese, but it doesn’t manifest itself into a political statement of independence, or no longer being Chinese.

Where as “Taiwanese pride” does manifest itself into political statement of “not Chinese” and the concept that mainland Chinese are still “beneath” them.

Of course this whole idea is somewhat convulted in my opinion because the advancement that ROC enjoys were under the stewardship of the KMT, which they get no credit for in a political discourse on Taiwan. Under the DPP stewardship ROC has not seen much advancement in many areas. In fact backsliding in many areas, including education, economics, and foriegn policy.

9

[quote]Etheorial wrote:

What’s quite interesting however, is that Taiwan was a colony of Japan, and normally colonies don’t feel a special affection for their colonizers.

Ever heard of the British Commonwealth? [/quote]

Exactly. Travels in India and Sri Lanka, for example, revealed quite a bit of affection among many people for their former colonizers.

10

Perhaps he is referring to the white colonizers that remained behind in certain commonwealths, like Canada and Australia.

I know the Canadian Native Indians and Australian Aboriginals have no love for the Queen and the Union Jack.

So if analogy is that some Japanese that stayed behind on Taiwan and their descendents have a political affinity to their “homeland,” it would make sense.

11

I enjoyed British rule because it was much better than the current Chinese mismanagement

12

For many years Japan (Tokyo) was the metropole of Taiwan. It was the governmental, cultural, economic, and for a time, religious center. When the KMT arrived and occupied the vacancies left by the Japanese, the KMT assumed the role of colonizer. The manner in which the KMT exercised its monopoly on power under a colonial model, especially in the early years, drove the Taiwanese to identify with Japan and Japanese culture. There was an old saying from the early years of KMT control: “Japanese are dogs and the Chinese are pigs… atleast a dog will guard your house”.
Although the KMT regime tried to use education to nationalize the Taiwanese, their conflicting actions deprived the KMT Chinese regime of the credibility needed to sway Taiwanese into becoming associated with the Chinese. This cleft was excentuated by the KMT’s own rhetoric expousing the glory of “Chinese culture” while denouncing the Chinese as backward and poor.

13

Whereas “mainland Chinese pride” does manifest itself into a political statement of “not Taiwanese” and the concept that Taiwanese are still “beneath” them.

If the mainlanders of nearly 60 years ago had come in with a different, benevolent attitude toward their hosts instead of acting like thugs, the Taiwanese would have long forgotten about the “good old days” under Japanese rule. Instead, they’d still be raving about the KMT and loudly celebrating the so-called “Retrocession Day.”

And, if the KMT had been less self-interested and acted upon the pleas of the people it governed, there never would have been calls for establishment of any other political party. If people were literally dying for a change, doesn’t that say something about their leaders?

Actions have reactions.

14

… and I need to underscore again that there is NO ETHNIC CHINESE!!!

15

No chinese huh? some 1.2 billion people are likely to disagree.

16

[quote=“cmdjing”]No Chinese huh? some 1.2 billion people are likely to disagree.[/quote]Nationality != ethnicity.

17

But that is just pop culture. There is no political affinity towards Japan in HK, even though Japan controlled the territory in WWII.[/quote]
Perhaps that’s because the Japanese raped and murdered thousands during the occupation, whereas the British and PRC forces that have been stationed in HK have raped and murdered nobody?

Your are wrong, and you show yourself to be not only ignorant of HK people’s views about Britain, but also of HK’s history. The British held HK for over 150 years. The New Territories were held for 100 years. Right or wrong, there are still quite a few people here who have strong affinities for Britain. When has there been a strong lobby in Taiwan pushing the government to provide education in Japanese? A large number, and quite likely a majority of HK parents blindly prefer for their children to be educated in English with Chinese (Cantonese at that) only used for Chinese class. Plenty even prefer for their children to give up any sort of Chinese language education, the long queue for a place at English Schools Foundation schools being evidence of this. There is still strong preference for “British English” within the education establishment. There is no government recruitment program for the NET scheme operating in North America.

AC, quite a lot of HK people like the British. And why shouldn’t they like them? HK people had it pretty good under British rule. Life in HK was certainly better than the alternative across the border. Were their inequalities? Sure. Would HK today be anything more than a sparcely populated backwater with nothing but farms and fishing villages if it weren’t for British rule? Almost certainly.

Proof? After all, no vote on the matter was ever held. I note your use of the word “accept” rather than a word that indicates that they ever had a say in the matter. That’s a rather rare example of accurate English usage from you.
I know plenty of HK people who don’t see themselves as Chinese, hold a non-Chinese passport and use that passport rather than a huixiangzheng to enter the mainland, but that doesn’t mean all HK people see things in that way. You are making sweeping generalizations without providing any evidence. Quite a lot of HKers are just plain ambivalent when it comes to identity. Why the comparison with “most HK” people? I doubt that anything less than most Taiwanese people are loyal to any country other than the ROC on Taiwan. I’ve met plenty of people who feel that contemporary Japan is a good friend to Taiwan, but I’ve never really met anybody who sang praises for the period of Japanese rule. HK is quite different from HK. There are plenty of people here who have positive views about HK’s time under British rule. And you know what? They’re right. Even if one believes that HK has done fine after the handover, there is no denying that HK did far better under British rule than any other Chinese territory during the same period.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Most HK people are no more than one generation removed from the mainland if not from the mainland. Most Taiwanese people have had no direct personal experience with the mainland. Their ancestors came to Taiwan generations ago. They have led lives almost completely seperate from the mainland for quite some time. Geography makes HK dependent on the mainland for water and food. The same is not true of Taiwan. Taiwanese people have done fine without being integrated with the mainland for most of their history. Why some Taiwanese don’t identify with China is no big mystery to me.

All of this nonsense about Taiwanese having strong affinities for Japan is a bullshit red herring. This is the kind of talk one can hear from uneducated mainlanders who see the world in black and white. I’ve met plenty of dumbass bumpkins who can’t accept that some Taiwanese would actually desire independence. Their narrow world view inevitably leads them to believe that the reason such Taiwanese refuse to consider themselves Chinese in the same vein as mainlanders is obviously because they are not only a bunch of pro-Japanese traitors, but actually consider themselves to be Japanese. Trouble is, I’ve never met any Taiwanese who fit such a description. Sure, I’ve met Japanese speaking old folks, but none young or old who considered themselves Japanese.

18

So 1.2 billion people who don’t enjoy freedom of speech and who do not read a free press have a backward opinion on something. So what. Here’s a little project for you. Go on a mainland discussion forum and post that you think there is no such thing as “ethnic Chinese.” Me thinks it will be deleted rather quickly.

19

Most Chinese are not blinded to reality and see quite obviously what languages are need to succeed in the modern world. One can be educated in a variety of languages and not compromise one’s identity or political affinity.

If you use this as a standard of determining political affinity, then it can be argued a few years before the hand over there was a mad scramble on HK to learn Mandarin thus illustrating Chinese political affinity for the mainland.

Really then why are terms like Gwei-lo and Ah-Sigh used so ubiquitously in HK? There is obviously a distinction and implied social standing between even the Chinese and non-Chinese in HK.

Perhaps they were treated like second class citizens? Choice leadership positions were never made available to any natives under British rule.

Then why so many Guangdong immigrants funneling money back to the PRC for retirement or help family. Sure HK was a good place to make money, but where did these people want to retire and dream about coming back as a hero. Wasn’t in the land where they were treated like second class citizens it would seem?

If the British weren’t so desperate to sell drugs, buy eating utensils and spices, it would have remained that way. From a urban development point of view that place is a disaster waiting to happen. A tsunami or typhoon can wipe the whole place off the face of the earth. I’m sure the PRC will be blamed for the natural disaster in the future. The quicker business move out of HK onto the mainland the better the place will become.

In any case, how strong is the XiangGangDuli movement on HK? Even the person using that ID on forumosa isn’t taken too seriously. You see CSB inviting any HK political leaders to Taiwan to talk about how intuitive China Independence can be?

That is slowly changing and is the fear of TI politicians. Once you allow for freedom of travel across the Strait of common PRC/ROC citizens the lies of the TI proproganda becomes so obvious, people will be wondering why so much time and energy was spent on this aspect of the debate in the first place. One only need to observe Chinatowns composed of ROC/PRC citizens all over the global. Sustainable communities with differing political views that results in the overall benefit for each individual can exist.

They are a minority voice on Taiwan. Their wake up call was the recent Diaoyutai incident involving the Ilan fishermen. If read the editorials in various TI literature, you will see response ranging from Japanese apologist to outright confusion. But it was obvious they could not grapple with the fact Japan had no affinity for Taiwan, like they had for Japan.

Similarly, when the news of Japan announced unilaterally Taiwan was in their strategic interest, the TI literature was overwhelmed with this notion of a faternaty with Japan.

Also if one looks at the “Taiwan Sex Tourism” book scandal. There wasn’t many TI leaders vocally denoucing the scandal either.

In a level-headed discussion I would agree the “Japan” factor is not a main factor in the TI issue. It is a secondary factor, which is usually used incorrectly to augment the argument the KMT did a poor job on Taiwan.

TI supporters usually cite how Japan development of Taiwan infrastructure was so great that their buildings are still in use today. But always failing to mention the Japanese had no compulsory education, the slaughter of thousands of natives to establish rule, and the establishment of a society that was bias against the natives.

And for these reasons, Japan always ends up as part discussion. Aside from the USA-Japan alliance that is suppose to save Taiwan, when TI decides it is time to start a war with the PRC.

20

Really then why are terms like Gwei-lo and Ah-Sigh used so ubiquitously in HK? There is obviously a distinction and implied social standing between even the Chinese and non-Chinese in HK.[/quote]
Now right here, AC, you prove you’re ignorant. Stop please. Just stop. For your own sake.

Oh, and:

That’s because we already know it’s a sock puppet identity. You know that too.