Taiwan's worker bennies kick Canadia's ass?

Legal Legal - Work
1

(Honestly I couldn’t really figure the best Forum for this, Moddos please relocate as you all see fit)
(Chewy probably has some knowledge to add into this)

OK, so here’s the deal.
My brother-in-law in Alberta works a white collar middle management (non-union) gig for what was once Western Canada’s largest (by a LOT) furniture/appliance chain, although their market share has dropped quite a bit in recent times.
He’s been with them about 30 years, give or take a couple.
The company was just bought by the country’s largest player in this field.
(Surprisingly, this has little or nothing to do with the most recent oilfield business bust, at least not directly)
The new owners are Ontario-based, and among other changes, are absorbing his department’s function into their existing operation in Toronto.
His entire Dept has been informed that they are no longer employed as of the end of April this year.
The rumour is that there was initially no package on offer, but that the former owners pressured the new owners into providing one, who knows the truth behind this.
So they’re going to give him 1 year’s pay as severance.

Here’s the thing, and please feel free to correct me if I’m missing something here, based on current labour regs in Taiwan, wouldn’t they be required to hand over at least 30 (ish) months’ pay??

Kind of bizarre if, in fact, Taiwan has labour protection superior to that of Commie Pinko Socialist Alberta, it seems to me.

1 Like
2

Nope Taiwan is a Months pay for a years work for upto 7 years.

3

There’s a 7-year cap?

4

I’m pretty sure if you worked for a Taiwanese company for 30 years you’d be entitled to a Pension, which is why vast majority are laid off before this occurs.

5

Well, now I’m confused.
This:

appears to disagree with this:

Anyone know more?

6

Pension is one month for every year worked. Severance is seperate from that

7

Pension’s a lot more complicated than that. Taiwan has two statutory occupational pension schemes in effect: the Old Labor Pension Scheme and the New Labor Pension Scheme. The Old Labor Pension Scheme is now being phased out for Taiwan citizens, but most foreign nationals working in Taiwan still fall under the Old Labor Pension Scheme, the only exceptions being foreign nationals who are married to Taiwan citizens and were hired in or subsequent to July 2005 or later or were hired earlier but then were shifted to the New Labor Pension Scheme.

In practice, it is very difficult to qualify to receive, and even more difficult to actually collect, a pension payment under the old scheme, because you must have remained with the same employer for a certain number of years until you reach a certain age. The minimum threshold in most cases is 15 years of service and 55 years of age. Historically, many companies have tended to use evasive tactics, such as laying employees off or reorganizing themselves, to avoid paying pension under the old scheme. Under the new scheme, the pension payouts are lower, but the payments go into a secure account that follows the employee when they depart employment, so that the employee is guaranteed to be able to collect the pension upon reaching retirement age.

see pensionfundsonline.co.uk/con … taiwan/100 , according to which:

“The Old Labour Pension Fund is a defined benefit scheme with lump sum payments; for every year of the first 15 years of service, the equivalent of two months’ salary is accumulated. For additional years, the equivalent of one month’s salary applies. There is a maximum payment equivalent to 45 months’ salary.”

Edit to add:
As for severance, see: winklerpartners.com/wp-conte … ETC_TW.pdf , according to which:

Employees terminated with notice are entitled to severance benefits equal to one month’s average
pay over the prior six months for each full year of service with their employer prior to July 1, 2005.
The average monthly pay includes overtime, subsidies and allowances. Benefits for periods of
service of less than one year are pro-rated. Service of less than one month is counted as one
month. For periods of service after that date, severance benefits are equal to 50% of the
employee’s average monthly wage per year of service up to a maximum of six months’ pay.

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[quote=“Rocket”](Honestly I couldn’t really figure the best Forum for this, Moddos please relocate as you all see fit)
(Chewy probably has some knowledge to add into this)

OK, so here’s the deal.
My brother-in-law in Alberta works a white collar middle management (non-union) gig for what was once Western Canada’s largest (by a LOT) furniture/appliance chain, although their market share has dropped quite a bit in recent times.
He’s been with them about 30 years, give or take a couple.
The company was just bought by the country’s largest player in this field.
(Surprisingly, this has little or nothing to do with the most recent oilfield business bust, at least not directly)
The new owners are Ontario-based, and among other changes, are absorbing his department’s function into their existing operation in Toronto.
His entire Dept has been informed that they are no longer employed as of the end of April this year.
The rumour is that there was initially no package on offer, but that the former owners pressured the new owners into providing one, who knows the truth behind this.
So they’re going to give him 1 year’s pay as severance.

Here’s the thing, and please feel free to correct me if I’m missing something here, based on current labour regs in Taiwan, wouldn’t they be required to hand over at least 30 (ish) months’ pay??

Kind of bizarre if, in fact, Taiwan has labour protection superior to that of Commie Pinko Socialist Alberta, it seems to me.[/quote]
Whether you use the old or new system in Taiwan depends on

  1. being Taiwanese or married to a Taiwanese vs. not being either,
  2. having started your current job before a certain date vs. having started later, and
  3. being in the old system but wanting the join the new system vs not wanting to join.
    For the details on how to determine which system applies, see Art. 7 to 13 of the Labor Pension Act (probably more clearly explained on the Ministry of Labor’s website, in the Chinese version at least).

In a nutshell, severance pay is 1 month per year (no maximum afaik) in the old system and half a month per year (max. 6 months) in the new system. For details, see Art. 17 of the LSA (old) and Art. 12 of the LPA (new).

Pensions are more complicated, and I’ve never quite figured them out. For details, see the Art. 53 to 58 of the LSA (old) and basically all of the LPA (new).

Most of Canada uses the CPP (Canada Pension Plan), which starts at age 65. Quebec has its own version, the QPP. There’s also employment insurance, as in Taiwan (for Taiwanese and their spouses). I don’t know how the numbers compare.

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Taiwan’s employment insurance [edit: this should read “labor insurance”, i.e. 勞動保險laodong baoxian] applies equally to employed foreign nationals (regardless of marital status, unlike the new pension system) as to Taiwanese.

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Are you sure?

[quote=“Employment Insurance Act - Article Content - Laws & Regulations Database of The Republic of China (Taiwan)”]Article 5
An employed worker over 15 and under 65 years of age and with one of the following statuses is required to join this employment insurance program as an insured person through his employer or the organization to which he or she belongs.

  1. An ROC national.
  2. A foreign national, Mainland Chinese citizen, Hong Kong citizen or Macao citizen married to an ROC citizen and having acquired legal residency in ROC.
    An employed worker as described in the preceding paragraph with one of the following statuses shall be ineligible for this insurance program:
  3. A person who is required by law to join the civil servant and teacher insurance program or military personnel insurance.
  4. A person who is already covered by labor insurance benefits for the elderly or old-age pensions for civil servants and teachers.
  5. A person employed by an employer or organization legally exempt from business registration and business tax or legally exempt from business registration and not required to provide uniform invoices as proof of purchase.
    People with two or more employers shall join this insurance program through one of the employers.[/quote]
    The confusing thing is that employment insurance (jiubao) is not the same as labor insurance (laobao).

Btw thanks for the link to that report. I’ve just read through it and found out a few new things. Most of the information is accurate, though some changes have occurred in the last four years, and some translations deviate from the official ones (not that the official ones are necessarily better).

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So far I believe foreigners without Local spouse are not guaranteed to receive the laobao payment even though they pay into it.

12

Which type of laobao payment? There are six categories, mostly to do with medical issues (i.e. not a job seeker’s allowance or compensation for being laid off for non-medical reasons). It’s explained on the BLI’s website (bli.gov.tw, with a more useful English version than the MOL’s website has) and in legalese in the Labor Insurance Act.

In some cases, a foreigner is likely to have the extra hurdles of getting foreign documents certified, translated, and certified again, but the BLI states clearly on its website that foreigners are still entitled to be paid.

13

The pension upon retirement.

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Are you sure?[/quote]

Sorry, I was confusing the English names of the labor and employment insurance schemes. You are correct that Taiwan’s employment insurance (就業保險) does not apply to foreign nationals unless they are married to a Taiwan spouse. Taiwan’s labor insurance (勞動保險) on the other hand does apply to unmarried foreign nationals who pay into the system. I was confusing the two names in English.

15

The document on the following page, written by the NIA and directed at foreigners, suggests to me that foreigners who pay into the system are also entitled to the labor insurance (laobao pension), married or not:

iff.immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … &mp=iff_en

I’ve also not seen anything excluding unmarried foreigners from laobao pension. It would be outrageous to exclude foreigners who have co-paid the premium.

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[quote=“Rotalsnart”]The document on the following page, written by the NIA and directed at foreigners, suggests to me that foreigners who pay into the system are also entitled to the laobao pension, married or not:

iff.immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … &mp=iff_en

I’ve also not seen anything excluding unmarried foreigners from laobao pension. It would be outrageous to exclude foreigners who have co-paid the premium.[/quote]
It looks like you’re right, but the government’s terminology isn’t always consistent, at least in English. bli.gov.tw/en/sub.aspx?a=BRN3K4zrsCQ%3d

There’s also a chart comparing the old pension system, new pension system, and labor insurance “pension”/benefit system.

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Rocket:

He should be getting at least two months pay if he’s worked over 10 years: work.alberta.ca/documents/Termi … Layoff.pdf

One year is actually quite generous.

But not as generous as working in government where it is usually one month’s pay per year worked if you work for a provincial or federal government. People in their 50s actually loved getting fired without cause because it means a three year salary bonus in addition to gold-plated pensions.

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Regarding the labor law pension: It seems that Taiwan might cheat foreigners out of the monthly pension payment into a much lower one-time payment, even if they are eligible for the monthly payment after 15 years contribution.

I am discussing that in another thread, see signature.

Reason for this suspicion are Germans who however have the (normally more beneficial) public service pension and do NOT get the monthly payment but only a one-time payment, because they are not Taiwan Nationals.

Labor law does not mention anything about needing to be ROC-citizen for the monthly payment on the English gov pages like here: http://www.bli.gov.tw/en/sub.aspx?a=n9N84vZDrjw%3D

But as the Public Service Pension is normally better I guess the foreigners with the labor law insurance eligibility will be cheated out of it as well.

19

I had always heard that severance was 1 month for every year of service until some locals I know who are dealing with this issue said it was one half month for every year up to 6 months total. My discussions around the former were always with foreigners. Is the 1 month for every year rule always applied to foreigners and maybe its why that rule is cited in those circles? I could very well be those discussions were based in misinformation, but now I’m curious.

20

Yes.

Basically, foreigners (excluding those who have married Taiwanese) and hired-before-2005 Taiwanese are subject to the “old system” (Labor Standards Act), and everyone else is subject to the “new system” (Labor Pension Act). The new system was created because the old system was built around the concept of one job for life and therefore not good enough for most people, but for the average foreigner (not planning to retire in Taiwan) the old system is better.

The average foreigner who’s married to a Taiwanese has, say, a 50% chance of retiring in Taiwan, so maybe the new system is preferable in that case. Ideally they would let you choose, but for now the system is designed to discourage single foreigners from staying permanently and/or to encourage foreigners who intend to stay permanently to marry locals.

Btw if you ever meet a civil servant who doesn’t believe you when you say that unmarried foreigners are subject to the old system regardless of when they were hired, relax. It may take a while, but they all figure it out eventually.
:popcorn: