Take action against Taiwan bank tax residency tax certificates

Taiwan Discrimination in Taiwan
678

tl;dr - I managed to submit an updated CRS form to CTBC after a protracted consultation with their employee. I wouldn’t wish anyone to go through this painful process and hope the government/financial sector sorts this out once and for all.

Thank you so much Andrew for your detailed reply. This really helped a lot today. I took all the information you provided, printed out excerpts of what you said with the Google Translation next to it (modified to my personal situation) and went to CTBC to tackle my first bank account in Taiwan as O-Bank seem to be relying on what they’ve done. From reading the CRS regulations, it seems like they have a database where they can search information. To what level I’m not sure. I put off O-Bank and told them let me deal with CTBC first and I’ll get back to them.

My first mistake was that I should’ve got a ticket earlier via the CTBC app. I was cycling there from my home and when I checked the app between 9-10 am, there were hardly any customers which is surprising as the Toufen branch serves the whole of Miaoli County. So I thought I could leave it till I get nearby, which was a poor choice. I queued for 1 hr 20 mins before I could be seen.

Lo and behold, as you said, it was a back and forth, using my limited Mandarin and Google Translate when necessary. She first tackled the 183 days issue and after consulting a bunch of people including her immediate colleagues as well as others on the phone, she came back and said I need my entry/exit certificate from NIA for them to update this as they couldn’t find any stamps in my passport as I used eGate. I said do I have to do this every year? She said yes. I’d have to come back every 1st July and prove to them that I’ve been resident for 183 days. If I went on holiday (as I did this winter) that changes things. I showed my file taxes which showed the duration of time I had been in Taiwan in the previous tax year but that didn’t help. Even my employer put this correctly, selecting 是.

We moved on to the main topic. The tax jurisdiction and TIN. This was a struggle to get across. I kept on referring to my printouts and they kept on talking about my passport being my residence etc. At this point, I was getting worn out and a bit frustrated at repeating myself. I went for the killer point and said I’d complain to the FSC, FOI and MOI (I’d printed it out again with both English and Mandarin and also got the full names of those three bodies to ensure they knew who I was talking about.) None of her colleagues could exactly help and they said the same thing about my passport being my country of residence and I kept on telling them their wrong. I told her to call someone higher up (as with all three points). Eventually, they came to a solution where they’d printed out a new CRS form, ticked A and started to sign it. I was like, wow, how did we get here so swiftly all of a sudden? Then, there was a second page where you write down taxation jurisdiction etc. This was the one that needed to be completed in English. Now for some reason, they said I had to tick both A & B on the first page, and then fill in Taiwan in the first row and then fill in my home country. I didn’t quite get it because “A” refers to Taiwan only and then “B” refers to neither Taiwan or America. I asked her to let me take a photo but she said I can’t as it’s CTBC’s property. I said fine but I need to Google Translate it because I don’t understand why am I ticking two different things. Eventually, another colleague came along and explained it but I didn’t fully get it. Then she said something else and the person I’m dealing with also said they had said the same thing. Eventually, I think I understood their point and went with it.

On the first page, I wrote, “I am only a tax-resident in Taiwan” in English. On the second page, I had to write “I have no work and I’m not a tax-resident of my home country.” (Words to that effect).

For some reason, they don’t classify Miaoli County as a state and rather a city when writing my residential address so we had to complete the whole form again.

Towards the end, I also saw that she had become quite frustrated because this was super long. The whole process took 2 hrs 15 mins and went through her lunch time. I decided that it would make things slightly better if I apologised for troubling her and thanking her before leaving as every time I visit CTBC, 95% of the time, I get served by the same employee.

That was a painful process and I think most people wouldn’t want to deal with this. Going to work straight after wasn’t ideal (with 10 mins to spare).

The government bodies need to provide proper advice and make things easier for all involved. No one should have to go through this mess. I’ll deal with the others in due course and wait for the latest withholding statement from CTBC and see if it’s correct.

Andrew, perhaps your post can be converted to a blog post of sorts and warn people (read “non-Americans and non-Eritreans”) who are coming to Taiwan to work for the first time that they shouldn’t sign any CRS forms unless they fully understand their tax situation in their home country. Also, that they should understand what the CRS form is about. I had very little understanding of it when I signed it in 2021 and was told what I needed to write without much explanation (My basic Mandarin couldn’t really handle banking back then.) Based on this, they should only select the appropriate option such as A - Taiwan is their only tax residence (if they are sure that’s the case).

Thanks for reading.

679

Great post. You and @justintaiwan should set up a support network: how to remain sane and still survive in Miaoli!

Spoiler: for @justintaiwan the answer is apparently: move to Melbourne. :slightly_smiling_face:

Guy

680

tl;dr - CRS form with Taishin Bank updated with fewer grey hairs than yesterday.

Day 2 - today’s target was Taishin Bank.

Checked on the Taishin app and there was no queue. Got my ticket number on the app just as I arrived at the branch and walked straight to the counter. After yesterday, I’d picked up some Mandarin which may have helped this conversation go slightly smoother. Who knew you could learn taxation related words in Mandarin through this interaction?

Presented my ARC and after asking me some questions and a few phone calls, a new CRS form was in front of me in 20 minutes. I couldn’t believe it. Was I already at the finish line? I may have declared victory a little too early.

I completed the form and the best thing is that the whole CRS/FATCA form is in both English and Mandarin. This must be due to the whole Richart/foreigner friendly approach of Taishin. I think we should collate a list of who provides a bilingual English/Mandarin CRS/FATCA form in another thread and make a complaint or whatever is the best way forward to make other financial institutions do the same thing. I digress.

I could read the form fully making sure I knew what I was signing my life away for. I saw the crucial tick box on the front page - “I am only a tax resident of Taiwan”. I ticked it, signed it and told them I was done.

Now the problems began. So the manager had already come out and was helping her fellow employee with this. As usual, they have a different understanding of tax residency. They said that they would write my Taiwanese address (which I accepted) for my home address but that they wouldn’t accept me ticking the 1st box as mentioned above. They kept on saying that I either need to have a Taiwanese ID or an APRC (good news for APRC holders - you might be able to finish this super quickly!). As I had an ARC, they couldn’t guarantee that I’m only a tax resident of Taiwan. Phone calls were made to Taipei who advised them to say this.

I had my translated notes like yesterday and kept on showing them that and then went for the final weapon in my possession - complaint to the FSC/FOI/MOI etc. After a back and forth, me telling them that I’ve lived in Taiwan for 4 years already (it was in the translated notes but they didn’t bother to fully read it) and them reading the whole form on their computer, they found a tick box at the end of the form (in the “Internal Use Only” section) that states (I’ve paraphrased it):

  1. They believe the CRS form/tax residency self-declaration to be correct based on what they’ve seen.
  2. They believe there are inconsistencies with the tax residency reporting, however it has been fully completed by the individual. (There are a bunch of reasons below and it’s not limited to those reasons).

They told me they would tick number 2. After reading it carefully, I accepted it as long as it meant I could complete the self-declaration CRS form correctly.

I had finally won after 1 hour. It felt such a relief since yesterday’s CTBC interaction was my benchmark. I told them I didn’t want to spend 2.5 hours dealing with this like I did at CTBC. :wink:

Now I have a new benchmark for the remaining two financial organisations that I need to deal with. :smiling_face:

681

Cunts, but that’s the correct procedure as said in art. 40 of the regulations governing the implementation of CRS.

682

They call it 苗栗國 for a reason I guess!

Moving to Melbourne was definitely the right choice for this time in my life though. For my sanity, finance, relationship. All are doing much better here!

683

FWIW I’ve recently opened an account - HSBC had me enter my TW TIN only

684

HSBC seems to know correct procedures. They did for me as well

685

I don’t have the energy or time currently to make a nearly two hour round trip to O-Bank in Zhubei to find out what they have done with my original CRS/FATCA form. The fact that they have stopped calling me makes me think they took what I said over the phone, edited the CRS/FATCA form and either filed it away or sent it off to their head office in Taipei.

Is there anyway I can request to see my old CRS/FATCA form please? Legally, with respect to the law say under personal information being held by an entity?

When I asked CTBC last week, they kept on avoiding the question until eventually they gave in and said it was in Taipei so I couldn’t see it. I’m not quite sure what Taishin did with my original form.

Do the banks scan the signed forms and hold them on file electronically?

How can I sue them @anon24369109 if I don’t have the evidence of what I’ve filled in, especially as none of them let me take a photo of my form saying it’s the bank’s property?

I’m thinking to wait until I receive the withholding tax statement later on this year and see whether it is correct or not. However, I don’t know if I can correlate what’s on the CRS/FATCA form with what is on the withholding tax statement or if it goes through another process.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

686

On suing, best to talk to a lawyer.

On the forms, they scan them electronically, dunno though if they r keen on sharing them with u.

687

I contacted O-Bank customer services this morning via their “Live Chat” service. Initially I was told that I needed to go to the bank branch to obtain confirmation of what was submitted on my CRS form. I said that O-Bank is a digital bank so I don’t understand why I need to go to the branch which is 1 hour away from where I live.

Eventually I was told the following:

  • They’ve confirmed that my residency is set to Taiwan only;
  • I will receive my tax withholding certificate via email.

So it means that they can see what’s on my account whether it is by means of a scan of the CRS form that I completed or that some boxes have been ticked on an electronic form that they’ve completed based on my CRS form.

Let’s see later on this year if both statements are correct.

688

I went to Taishin Bank last week to submit my updated CRS form. Straight away basically they where saying the “I’m only a Taiwan tax resident” option is just for citizens, etc etc.
I explained being a national of a country doesn’t make someone a tax resident. At one stage there was 3 people around discussing it and I didn’t have anything printed out and was showing information from my phone.

I thought this might go on for awhile so I asked for their email addresses which they provided their business cards and said I’ll email to explain and provide links. We agreed that they would keep the filled in CRS form and wait for my email and if they still don’t accept it then the form would be destroyed.

I emailed later in bilingual clearly explaining what I put on the form was correct and they replied yesterday stating after reviewing they have accepted the CRS form :slight_smile:

689

When they send you the next tax withholding certificate, would you mind forwarding it to me with your personal info redacted? I complained to Taishin a few months ago — they were supposed to call me back and didn’t, and I didn’t get around to chasing it up yet.

So it’d be good to have one from Taishin showing it done correctly for when they say again this isn’t possible for foreigners.

(This is for a Richart account, so done online without a paper CRS self-declaration — just me saying four times that I’m only tax resident in Taiwan and them then assuming I’m tax resident in the UK anyway.)

690

I helped a foreigner now friend who just moved to Toufen, Miaoli County open his salary account with E.SUN Bank. Armed with my knowledge based on what was mentioned here, we went in and attempted to open the account with a correct self-declaration of the CRS/FATCA form. We spent over 3 hours and they kept on coming up with stuff. In the end, I let my friend decide what he wanted to do as he had limited time to open the account before he had to start work. We went with what they said and I asked them for their names so that “we” could complain.

I’ve drafted the complaint letter two weeks later. According to the FOI, one needs to complain to the bank directly first and if not resolved after 30 days, then go to the FOI. The FSC doesn’t seem to have any criteria from my understanding. Who should my friend complain to first please?

691

First bank, then FOI, they r correct. FSC can’t care less

692

You’re probably the first foreigner to be questioning them about this in Miaoli. The employees are risk adverse and listen to their supervisor’s training, who probably told them to do this. So they’ll call their boss and if their boss says this is the way it is, they won’t take your word over theirs (who would? it’s career suicide). So now you have to find a higher up to complain to, who will tell their subordinate this is the way it’s supposed to be done, and they will do it. If anyone asks why they did it, they will say because the higher up said so, I was just doing what I was told.

693

Excuuuuuuse me :joy: I take that crown :crown:

Well did, not a foreigner now

But you are right. It’s basically the blind leading the blind

694

Today, I helped the same foreigner-friend open a CTBC account in Toufen, Miaoli County. It’s the same branch where I opened mine a few years ago and where I went to try and change my CRS form this year, albeit with partial success as reported earlier in this thread.

The first hurdle was that he couldn’t open a bank account as he’d opened one recently with E.SUN and that he had to wait 3 months before he could open a second bank account. I told them to prove it to me where it’s written, either in the law or in CTBC’s regulations. After the employee consulted management, they relented and started the account opening process. A win in my book! :muscle: (We’d been to CTBC twice before and were denied account opening as he didn’t have his ARC, only the paper from immigration with his ARC ID number which wasn’t sufficient as they needed proof of address. Rental contract wasn’t sufficient. Had to be a formally issued bill etc. which is impossible when you’ve just landed in the country.)

After a back and forth for about 2 hours, they insisted that he select option 1 and 2. Option 1 is that he is only a tax resident of Taiwan. Option 2 is that he has tax residence elsewhere, which he does not. They said based on KYC etc. he has to select option 2 and write down his country of citizenship. I told them to call someone senior and check etc. Unfortunately, no dice. I said if we can’t complete the form correctly, then we will be filing a complaint for being forced to incorrectly complete the form. We avoided providing his TIN by stating that he has not been present in his country of citizenship for more than 183 days etc.

So a partial success with regards to the CRS/FATCA, similar to mine. I had a print out of the law stating the bank’s obligations which didn’t help. The manager is the one who came up with the option of writing a statement mentioned in my previous paragraph which they would accept in lieu of a TIN from his home country.

The good thing is that my friend is learning the ropes about this CRS/FATCA stuff, being fresh out of uni. Fingers crossed he is successful in opening an account with HSBC this afternoon by himself as I’ll be at work. It’s his last day before he joins the workforce with regular working hours tomorrow so we wanted to get this bureaucratic stuff out of the way.

695

The complaint to E.SUN Bank is too long so it doesn’t fit their online message box. I’ve formulated it into a letter and will print it then get him to sign it and then drop it off at the local branch. If they don’t accept it, then I’ll ask him to post it to E.SUN HQ as per the address on their website.

696

THIS IS THE ATTITUDE, BRAVO!

Ok, here can get tricky, want to clarify. Has he just arrived to TW? How long has he been in TW before applying for the account?

HSBC can be feisty at times, would he open it due to having another HSBC account abroad (possibly Premier) or just out of the blue?

697

they should have an email you can write complaints to. you can write in the online mex box that you sent a detailed email to that address.