Tawian: A socio-economic comparison with other countries

[color=indigo]***** Moderator’s Note: The posts in this thread were split from the thread entitled “No KMT cash for 228 victims” *****[/color]

[quote=“mr_boogie”]high standard of living? Fantastic National Health Care?
Are we talking about Taiwan?[/quote]

[quote=“mr_boogie”]
In many aspects, Taiwan is still underdeveloped - the quality of public transportation in Taipei city is really subpar to other developped countries in the world.[/quote]

I think you’re being a bit rough on Taiwan, Boogie. Name me one other country that charges so little in taxes and manages to deliver solid healthcare coverage without going bankrupt. I think its as good a system as any western country’s.

Public transportation is subpar? Have you ever actually been on a subway system in New York, Paris, or Chicago? Taipei’s system is cleaner, more reliable, safer and cheaper than all of them.[/b]

[quote=“taiwansotherside”][quote=“mr_boogie”]high standard of living? Fantastic National Health Care?
Are we talking about Taiwan?[/quote]

[quote=“mr_boogie”]
In many aspects, Taiwan is still underdeveloped - the quality of public transportation in Taipei city is really subpar to other developped countries in the world.[/quote]

I think you’re being a bit rough on Taiwan, Boogie. Name me one other country that charges so little in taxes and manages to deliver solid healthcare coverage without going bankrupt. I think its as good a system as any western country’s.

Public transportation is subpar? Have you ever actually been on a subway system in New York, Paris, or Chicago? Taipei’s system is cleaner, more reliable, safer and cheaper than all of them.[/quote]
New Yorks subway system is far larger with over 400 stations and is over 100 years old. So yes of course Taiwan’s is cleaner. Taiwan is also a heck of a lot more expensive than the other systems thanks to corruption.

Also, the taxes in the ROC is higher than in the USA. Get your facts straight.

Low taxes, high income and huge quality of life - Luxembourg - going Bankrupt??? buahahahah

And by the way, have you ever been in Porto Metro? As clean as the Taipei city one, a lot longer, and cheaper to build (although they had to use the most powerfull driller ever built to do a big part of bit). As for the transportation cost, yes it is more for 1 ticket, but if you use it a lot you pay less than 1K in the monthly pass.

Anyway, the MRT system in Taipei only covers a small ammount of the town. The buses are without any doubt low class, polluting and most of them don’t even fit in my security standards.

Taipe’s MRT is smaller, but you never see anyone cleaning the subway in NYC, not to mention the lovely stench of urine everywhere. No one cares, and it’s too expensive to keep clean.

Taipei’s more expensive? NT$66 to go one stop in NYC, NT$15 for the same thing in Taipei, and NT$55 to go from one end to the other.

ROC corporate taxes are higher (no one actually pays them), but personal income taxes are actually lower when you consider those nasty healthcare costs. What NY are you living in, and what do get out out of bashing Taiwan? It’s not perfect, but it’s not that bad either.

[quote=“taiwansotherside”]Taipe’s MRT is smaller, but you never see anyone cleaning the subway in NYC, not to mention the lovely stench of urine everywhere. No one cares, and it’s too expensive to keep clean.[/quote]You don’t see anyone cleaning because its done at 3-4am. They literally drench the entire platform and jet spray it. The stench comes from the millions that utilize the worlds most complex, dense, subway system in the world that happens to be the oldest in America.

[quote=“taiwansotherside”]Taipei’s more expensive? NT$66 to go one stop in NYC, NT$15 for the same thing in Taipei, and NT$55 to go from one end to the other.[/quote]You’re falsely implying that it costs NT$66 PER STOP! (an easily walkable 7-9 city blocks). Its NT$66 no matter how far you go back and forth and how many times you transfer through NYC and you could transfer to buses and vice versa and from the New Jersey Path Train for FREE. This is ONLY if you purchase one fare. Anyone purchasing $10 USD gets $12 USD or 6 fares or NT$64 per fare. There is also the much cheaper unlimited fares starting at NT$226!

[quote=“taiwansotherside”]ROC corporate taxes are higher (no one actually pays them), but personal income taxes are actually lower when you consider those nasty healthcare costs.[/quote]What are you talking about? NYC, NYS, and the Federal taxes are flexible enough that you’d pay less. Subjectively you probably pay more because you make more in NYC but I don’t think thats the way after deductions and so on.

No one is bashing Taiwan. I’m bashing your ability to get the facts straight.

Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html

[quote=“cctang”]Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html[/quote]

With Taiwan, I have never seen a tax burden SO LOW overall in income taxes. Bar none!

When explaining Social Security [that FICA Guy…who is he? Social Security}, State, Local and Federal taxes, plus local property tax rates in the US. Taiwanese have it MADE! Overall it’s not only quite modest, it’s perhaps the most miserly and BEST DEAL of any country! Then add the fact there are NO sales taxes you see added on at the register here…from airline tickets to items purchased in a store. I’ve never seen such a LOW tax burden in my life.

When it comes time to file my tax statements later in the year I’ll have to go over again with the Missus just how cheap the taxes are. It’s a huge and complicated form to fill out but when you boil it all down it’s quite a bargain. When you stack it up, it’s a steal compared to what one would face in California or New York on just state income alone, let alone filing an IRS 1040.

The stiffest burden seen personally is the annual “Fuel Tax” on those whom own automobiles {none of which are imposed on motorscooter owners}, This is calculated on the engine size of your car when it was originally purchased. {This does not go down as you add miles on the car though! That point is stupid to me. Completely opposite to yearly US vehicle registration fees} For my own vehicle, I will be paying $13000+ NT for this tax. It’s been the same every year and it’s 10 years old.

I’ve wondered if Taiwan could have a 2-3% National Sales Tax that could -Start to- address its constant budget shortfalls and reduce its deficit spending? {as well as the crisis with credit spending seen in the news here with credit card debt and the insane “cash card” spending that is out of control…} Target the consumption angle to that and I bet it’d be interesting to see the overall cost/benefit results of that. I hearken Hell would freeze over if that actually happened though. No one here on either side of the political spectrum; be they Green, Blue or any shade between has the BALLS to do anything like that! Then have the nerve to get into any sort of idea of tax reform? Forget it! It’s a place that no one wants to go. For the many ideas that have come forth, I remember reading an intro book to Taiwan saying how revenue poor the government really is. {a book written over 10 years ago.} It’s not that there’s a lack of revenue, by no means. It’s the -adequate collection of it!- that seems the problem. With that in mind, I do think there could be some very creative things in other areas to explore that do not at all impact the most fragile of people on the income ladder adversely. The proverbial, “when served lemons, make lemonaide” approach to address the situation somewhat. It couldn’t completely cure the situation, but at least get some kind of approach started on it. It’s a mess overall. They cant deficit spend forever with the limited base they have as is. No way! They’ve gone about as far as it goes with the national highway toll system and its revenue generation, other means clearly need to be employed. The overall tax revenue collection scheme the TW government has in hand at the moment is stagnant, perhaps ancient to say the least. But nothing to me says it’ll change anytime soon.

:notworthy:

Shrimp,
Okay, so you’re an expert on Taiwan because you own land here. What are your qualifications for telling a born and bred New Yorker that he doesn’t know his own city? About the same as telling people who live in Taiwan that they’ve got it all wrong?

The stench comes from people ‘using’ the system by urinating and occasionally defecating in corners because there are no public bathrooms (no money to clean those either, and they aren’t safe). If you ever get out of midtown, you’ll rarely see anyone cleaning the stations in the suburbs, and you’ll never see anyone cleaning the tracks, which is where the urine and rats call home. It has gotten better but have a look and get to know your home town.

I’m implying no such thing - you’re putting words into my mouth and not providing any actual facts. What idiot would think that it costs NT$1320 to get to Manhattan from Brooklyn? It does in fact cost NT$66 dollars to go one stop or 20 in NY, and 7-9 city blocks is not easily walked by everyone. The subway fare has nearly doubled in the last 15 years, all of NYC pays 1.8 percent in additional sales tax to subsidize the system, and yet you still never know when the next train is going to come.

Shrimp,
Okay, so you’re an expert on Taiwan because you own land here. What are your qualifications for telling a born and bred New Yorker that he doesn’t know his own city? About the same as telling people who live in Taiwan that they’ve got it all wrong?[/quote]
My qualifications over New York City is solid because I actually lived here for the last 23 years. Yes granted, I did spend lots of time in Taiwan as well. But I also commute on the subway for about 2-3 hours daily. I’ve also walked over almost every inch of New York City myself. I’ve also been in some of the old undergrounds that most people haven’t set foot in in decades. You’ll find out why as you read on…

And, heres where you’re WRONG AGAIN! There ARE public bathrooms in New York City’s subway stations, especially at all the prominent hubs and many are in the non transferrable stations as well. Most have doors that look totally old because of the layers upon layers of paint on doors that are over 25 years old, but aren’t really so bad on the inside. Proves that you know NOTHING about NYC Subways.

As for safety, thats been stepped up as well. Some of the bathrooms even have alarm buttons just in case we travel back in time to the dangerous 80’s.

That piss smell isn’t usually from people pissing, more so, its from sewage, mostly it comes from the trash. Notice, the piss smell tends to come from the black rectangular trash bins with the angled top (aka the ends/edges of the subway platform) or from the storage rooms. Again, proving you know even less than most. You just assume.

Dude, again, they clean in the early mornings, system wide.
I’ve witnessed this myself. Its also the same time the garbage train arrives. Again, theres a reason why I know this… read on.

I’m implying no such thing - you’re putting words into my mouth and not providing any actual facts. What idiot would think that it costs NT$1320 to get to Manhattan from Brooklyn? It does in fact cost NT$66 dollars to go one stop or 20 in NY, and 7-9 city blocks is not easily walked by everyone. The subway fare has nearly doubled in the last 15 years, all of NYC pays 1.8 percent in additional sales tax to subsidize the system, and yet you still never know when the next train is going to come.[/quote] I wouldn’t quickly denounce idiots especially when your message says that someone should choose to A) Not walk 7-9 blocks (10 minutes walking) but instead choose to spend $2 on a subway fare just to go 1 stop, and B) intentionally doesn’t mention that NYC subway trains can travel all over without extra fare, and transfer to buses and the Path for free. So you are being very dubious, and spreading a bad idea to potential NYC tourists here.

Note: 7-9 blocks North<->South, and 2-3 blocks, East<->West. Anyone except for severe cripples can walk that in 10 minutes! For 1 stop, it takes at minimum, appx 1 minute for transit PLUS TIME WAITING AT THE PLATFORM (up to 16 minutes total) and you miss out on all the unique stores and restaurants.

The trains actually have a set schedule and a time when they arrive. Sometimes they are delayed but usually not. Most trains arrive every 10-15 minutes in Manhattan and Queens during daylight hours. Late at night it drops to every 30 minutes. Exceptions are rush hours when people hold up the trains. Remember this since you have no inkling of how often the subway system runs.

Yes the fares have doubled, but its still cheaper than many other systems in the world. And I noticed that you stopped arguing that the NYC subway system is almost or in ways cheaper than the Taiwan ones. Instead deviating to other topics somewhat related but not to the point. Your ploy fails here, you lose instantly on this point.

Anyway, next time, trade subway figures and know-how with someone who HASN’T worked for the MTA. Especially someone who actually worked on and studied the entire chain for the system, which covers train scheduling, train tracking, system processes, what gets cleaned, how they handle repairs, etc etc!!! I spent months on the MTA Bridges and Tunnels Networking and Intrusion projects. Shows how much help Gothamist did for you!

PS, The thread, you actually mispelled Taiwan as Tiwain.

:laughing: :laughing:

I guess we just don’t understand NY subway culture.

:laughing: :laughing:

I guess we just don’t understand NY subway culture.[/quote]

ROFL! You just don’t understand Chinese culture, history, politics, train of thought, or arguments, even though you are trouncing and winning the argument, because you are not Chinese.

PS: Subways is Evil! Train is a Cult!

:laughing: :laughing:

I guess we just don’t understand NY subway culture.[/quote]

ROFL! You just don’t understand Chinese culture, history, politics, train of thought, or arguments, even though you are trouncing and winning the argument, because you are not Chinese.

PS: Subways is Evil! Train is a Cult![/quote]

And I don’t understand a word of that.

[quote=“cctang”]Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html[/quote]

Get YOUR facts straight - while the statutory rate is 25%, the gov. is so bad about disallowing expenses that often times the effective rate ends up above 30%. This is before you get to the fact that:
a) Taiwan has very few tax treaties - so hello to double taxation
b) Taiwan tax laws are still in the stone ages in terms of “Taiwan sourced Income” so that even cost sharing gets penalized
c) Gov. audits are arbitrary and unreasonable and basically just out to shake down MNC for cash. Basically you get screwed for being law abiding.

[quote=“Elegua”][quote=“cctang”]Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html[/quote]

Get YOUR facts straight - while the statutory rate is 25%, the gov. is so bad about disallowing expenses that often times the effective rate ends up above 30%. This is before you get to the fact that:
a) Taiwan has very few tax treaties - so hello to double taxation
b) Taiwan tax laws are still in the stone ages in terms of “Taiwan sourced Income” so that even cost sharing gets penalized
c) Gov. audits are arbitrary and unreasonable and basically just out to shake down MNC for cash. Basically you get screwed for being law abiding.[/quote]

And your facts are not exactly straight either. Depending on the industry the company is involved in there are often legal avenues for reducing the tax bill, in my case i legally do not need to declare some 60% of my companies turnover.

Disallowed costs are generally for items like entertainment bills and this was in the past, and still is to some extent seen as an avenue for back handers and kick backs hence were disallowed in part.

[quote=“Traveller”][quote=“Elegua”][quote=“cctang”]Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html[/quote]

Get YOUR facts straight - while the statutory rate is 25%, the gov. is so bad about disallowing expenses that often times the effective rate ends up above 30%. This is before you get to the fact that:
a) Taiwan has very few tax treaties - so hello to double taxation
b) Taiwan tax laws are still in the stone ages in terms of “Taiwan sourced Income” so that even cost sharing gets penalized
c) Gov. audits are arbitrary and unreasonable and basically just out to shake down MNC for cash. Basically you get screwed for being law abiding.[/quote]

And your facts are not exactly straight either. Depending on the industry the company is involved in there are often legal avenues for reducing the tax bill, in my case i legally do not need to declare some 60% of my companies turnover.

Disallowed costs are generally for items like entertainment bills and this was in the past, and still is to some extent seen as an avenue for back handers and kick backs hence were disallowed in part.[/quote]

Yeah like you say, his facts are not exactly straight either, but you admit that yours were not as well. There are minor expections to any major rule.

You see Dropout argue all the time about minor problems in other countries and why, although in a major scale, that China should then be exempt because of such. You don’t want to be in his shoes.

In anycase I believe I’ve won this argument. As a business owner in the United States as well as in Taiwan, I can assure you that all ideas that the taxes in Taiwan is much cheaper than the US, if at all, is well overblown and likely propoganda from two sides with a common agenda, the unification of Taiwan with China.

What will you believe next? That despite 4% growth, Taiwan’s economy is getting worse? Absolute rubbish.

[quote=“Traveller”][quote=“Elegua”][quote=“cctang”]Speaking of inability to gettin the facts right…

Folks, corporate tax rates in the United States is 35%. In the ROC, it’s 25%. You could argue that in the ROC, corporations also need to pay a value-add tax on revenue and not just income… but of course, in the United States, depending on local jurisdiction you have to pay a state sales tax. And as TOS pointed out, personal income taxes are lower in the ROC than the US.

Bottom line, what’s the proof that taxes in the ROC are higher than they are in the United States?

investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/faq/taxremit.html[/quote]

Get YOUR facts straight - while the statutory rate is 25%, the gov. is so bad about disallowing expenses that often times the effective rate ends up above 30%. This is before you get to the fact that:
a) Taiwan has very few tax treaties - so hello to double taxation
b) Taiwan tax laws are still in the stone ages in terms of “Taiwan sourced Income” so that even cost sharing gets penalized
c) Gov. audits are arbitrary and unreasonable and basically just out to shake down MNC for cash. Basically you get screwed for being law abiding.[/quote]

And your facts are not exactly straight either. Depending on the industry the company is involved in there are often legal avenues for reducing the tax bill, in my case i legally do not need to declare some 60% of my companies turnover.

Disallowed costs are generally for items like entertainment bills and this was in the past, and still is to some extent seen as an avenue for back handers and kick backs hence were disallowed in part.[/quote]

So you’re telling me that PWC is wrong? Should I re-submit my corp. taxes and ask for a refund?

I’m not talking about caps. The local tax bureau has very stringent standard for what expenses can be claimed in terms of bad debts, inventory write-downs and has one of the broadest definition of locally sourced revenue I’ve ever seen outside of a 3rd world country. In addition, tax determinations can take up to 3 years and be thrown out for no logical reson other than “don’t try to fight this - we’ll make you lose”

Ok Taiwan - you do what you want. But see how many regional resources I move to this tax disadvantaged (compared to HKG or SIN, or even China (in some cases)) location.