TCM discussion


#102

So when I said a drug has to be 5% more effective than the placebo, why did you think I was talking about pvalues?

Now you’re bringing up the social sciences, getting even more off track.


#103

You said the above and it’s not true that the only thing they need to approved is a 5% difference over.a placebo. . You either said it because you do not understand statistics or you understand NOTHING about pharmaceutical drug testing , if you believe that for a drug to be approved it only has to be 5% more effective than a placebo. You’re totally ignorant of how the pharmaceutical.industry develops drugs. Stick to SPSS and the social sciences.


#104

I use R and Python.


#105

Buddhist meditation is science, because it’s based on empirical observation (of one’s own consciousness) and peer review by other lamas. Therefore Buddhist cosmology, featuring a Flat Earth, should be taken seriously.


#106

I believe some Chinese medicine do work. But it’s also mixed with so much BS. Also I believe it’s whats causing the high liver cancer rate. There’s already been some proof is some things used in Chinese medicine being hepatotoxic.


#107

Acupuncture heals pain, that’s the only thing that has been empirically verified.


#108

This is an exploration of “how” acupuncture works.
“Sham acupuncture may ‘work’ by modulating known placebo circuitry in the brain,” said

Napadow, who is an associate professor in radiology at Harvard Medical School. “In contrast, real acupuncture may improve CTS symptoms by rewiring the primary somatosensory cortex, in addition to modulating local blood flow to the peripheral nerve in the wrist. In other words, both peripheral and central neurophysiological changes in CTS may be halted or even reversed by electro-acupuncture interventions that provide more prolonged and regulated input to the brain — something that future, longer-term neuroimaging studies should explore.”


#109

Some of it (tea and such) is also mixed with over-the-counter Western medicines, to give it that extra “kick.” This gives some insight into whether the practitioners really believe in their art, or are more like the fortune tellers.

I know a guy who studied TCM in China and got his degree. He told me that he thought the tradition is basically dead–killed by the system of government regulation. For example, instruction focuses on a series of difficult exams testing how well one has memorized lists of relatively impractical “facts” (whereas in earlier times, different doctors would have given different answers). Also, the professors have generally gotten their jobs through their connections, and get student assistants to compose articles which they publish under their own names. Plagiarism is apparently rife.

Fascinating how some forms of TCM have received state backing, while certain forms of qigong (which also makes health claims) have resulted in state suppression.


#110

Doesn’t matter what the hell they did in China. The only thing that’s been empirically validated is acupuncture and that’s only for pain.


#111

My bad. I just looked at my source, and it looks like magnitude doesn’t even matter. Just statistical significance.

She’s the one who made the conflation, not you. There book was written by a neuroscientist and a
Journalist and the journalist probably wrote this part:


#112

Some of you mentioned Qi in the previous discussion which made me think of this TED Talk: John Lloyd inventories the invisible

Just because it’s invisible doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There are lots of examples in this TED talk.

I know some professors in Taiwan or abroad are doing research on Qi, such as former president of National Taiwan University, Stanford EE PhD, Si-Chen Lee.
Here’s some publication of his on Qigong.

I loved how you guys discuss this topic. Since everyone has different knowledge level in TCM/Science/Medicine and we’re on the internet, I’m not going to do some serious debate here. However, I did contact some of you and we will meet soon to exchange our opinions face to face. Let me know if you’re interested in discussing TCM in person.

Since it’s a long story to talk about the theory of TCM, I would skip all these and jump to the very end: the clinical efficacy. In our daily practice, we see some “TCM believers” come to us for treatment because they don’t want to be treated with chemical drugs or they’re not satisfied with the result of western medical treatment. We also see lots of patients who might not believe in TCM but are willing to give it a try because they’ve already tried other treatments. If you see patients as I did, you’ll know that both TCM and Western medicine have their own advantages and disadvantages. It is very common for patients to seek different types of treatment.

In my clinical experiences, I did see some “magical/dramatic” effect that TCM can solve the problem which Western medicine can’t solve. A professor from my alma mater has even more cases to share. He treated mostly critical illness like cancer patients that are given up by physicians. These “magical” results can mostly be repeated and can be well explained by TCM theory. And when the result is not as good as expected, TCM doctors can always go back to modify the diagnosis, adjust the prescription and make an observation when patients come back next time. This is what I believe TCM practices is qualified for the science method. (↓ please see photo below) The TCM theory is quite mature 3,000 years ago. That’s why we still study the classics written by then.

I recently talked to a senior of mine who practice acupuncture in the hospital and he makes $700,000 NTD a month and he’s not the only rich TCM doctors I know. I believe he doesn’t make money by chances, he must know TCM better than you and me and he must have found the way to repeat the “magical” part of TCM.

Like it or not, the market will speak.
In the end, the one that’s effective will last.
(Some people just probably would never understand why.)


#113

Here we go. Now alternative medicines cure cancer.


#114

Well okay then, if people are making that kind of money from it, then it must be legit. Sign me up!


#116

Please note that I didn’t say “cure.”

Well said the great Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine:
download

I said “treat.” This is one of the reason why I don’t like to respond to some replies. Too many emotional and unreasonable responses, too time-consuming to reply all of them.

We see many patients become too weak to have another chemotherapy and/or radiotherapy. Physicians can no longer help them because their WBC is too low or they have developed cachexia or the metastasis is beyond control. However, with the proper treatment by using herbal medicine, some of these patients can live peacefully with cancer. We might be able to make their appetite better, make them more energetic or slow down the progression of cancer. That’s good enough for most cancer patients.

I know some TCM professors/doctors in Taiwan that “treat” cancer patients effectively with or without western medicine (if without WM, mostly because the patients refuse to). They wouldn’t promise patients “cure” but they can improve patients’ quality of life. Some patients get a couple of more months/years to live. Most patients have a better quality of life. I believe that’s why cancer patients want to see TCM doctors in Taiwan.

This is the real medical scene I know that has been practicing in Taiwan. Share with you. No TCM doctors would be banned by “treating” cancer patients with TCM in Taiwan. The National Health Insurance even cover cancer treatment with herbal medicine and/or acupuncture. We have cancer patient consultation referred from oncologists almost every single day in National Defense Medical Center, Tri-service General Hospital. Most TCM doctors in Taiwan are well trained in both Western medicine and TCM. Please go to licensed TCM doctors when you feel the need for TCM treatment. Thank you!


#117

Please don’t waste your money on people who believe they can diagnose you by using your pulse or the color of your tongue. Don’t waste your money on snake oil peddlers ! Or else why not spend it on other quack medicine philosophies too, like homeopathy


#120

According to these people traditional Chinese medicine is science because some guy, probably with the aim of selling something later on, used science to analyze or prove what some Chinese herbs can do to the human body. To say that Chinese medicine is science because a scientist (?) says that he used science and proved that some herbs do something is about the same than to say that musicians are mathematicians because you can use maths for analyzing music. Ridiculous. Of course the guy firstly pretended that he didn’t understand me and later just pretended I didn’t destroy his retarded logic and kept discussing about statistics and medicine (I think he also lost that battle).

Poor guys. At least the other one seems to get some money with the TCM scam.


#121

It’s TCM, no CTM. Tika Chicken Masala, or is it Chinese Trolling Medicine? I’m confused after all this nonsense.

I wonder if one day you will be one of those guys who die out of an untreated cancer because they find all these scammers more convincing than the evil pharma industry and its “modern medicine”.


#122

Can you Give me a study?

Ive yet to find any evidence of it working better than placebo.


#123

Taiwan has some of the loosest laws about fake medicine that I’ve ever seen. I mean, you can’t watch the TV news without seeing multiple ads for vitamins, cold remedies, and other nostrums that apparently restore vitality to the aged and protect your children from vaguely threatening cartoon shapes. I see Herbal Life bags everywhere.


#124

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Victims/craven.html