Teachers' involvement in perpetuating problems

[ EDIT: Added note: This thread was split off another thread, so it “jumps right in”… and some comments on the way refer to things that happened in the former thread. :slight_smile: ]

[quote=“In another thread, alecinwonderland”]Tonight’s classic test question:
Correct this sentence (change underlined section, not multiple choice):
Running over by a car, the dog limped away.
How the hell do you teach this?[/quote]
It’s quite easy to tell anybody how this pattern works (try this: “in this type of sentence pattern a past participle indicates the passive voice while a present participle the active voice”), but if people don’t learn it, the telling cannot legitimately be called teaching. And people can’t usually learn it if it has no recognizable relation with the reality they live in. And even if they did learn it (meaning you did teach it) it is hardly of any practical use to those poor students of yours. So you can’t win…

This kind of nonsense would disappear very quickly if people like you were to refuse to pretend to be teachers in these kinds of circumstances. (Please note that this is not meant as an accusation or to blame you personally - i know very well that as an individual acting alone you would be powerless to make a difference even if you refused to participate in this nonsense any longer - but the sum total of all the “native speaker English teachers” in the system doing what they are doing ensures that this kind of problem is being perpetuated.)

That’s highly unlikely and not helpful to the OP.

That’s highly unlikely and not helpful to the OP.[/quote]

Public discussions of this sort are usually not only about the OP. :wink: I am lucky enough to have learned English (and other things) inspite of the school system i was in, but obviously many people aren’t that lucky. I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that this nonsense will disappear, but “unlikely” is not the same as “never”. Don’t you agree that it would be helpful if all the people who are in the business of teaching English were to think more deeply about what they are doing - and especially about what they are not doing - that perpetuates the problems they are rightly complaining about? :slight_smile:
But we are getting more and more off topic - i think one of the relevant threads is here: viewtopic.php?f=110&t=103253

[ EDIT: Added note: the OP being mentioned here is the OP of the former thread these posts belonged to ]

[quote=“yuli”]

Public discussions of this sort are usually not only about the OP. :wink: I am lucky enough to have learned English (and other things) inspite of the school system i was in, but obviously many people aren’t that lucky. I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that this nonsense will disappear, but “unlikely” is not the same as “never”. Don’t you agree that it would be helpful if all the people who are in the business of teaching English were to think more deeply about what they are doing - and especially about what they are not doing - that perpetuates the problems they are rightly complaining about? :slight_smile:
But we are getting more and more off topic - i think one of the relevant threads is here: viewtopic.php?f=110&t=103253[/quote]

What I think would be helpful is to answer the OP’s question. He or she didn’t come here for a philosophical discussion about whether he’s qualified to do his job or not.

You are right that this is OT, I’ll probably temp this whole part of it later.

My comment was not at all about the OP’s qualifications. :slight_smile:
But the longer the thread becomes the more one might wonder who is qualified…

So foreign teachers are whores, but whores who are nonetheless expected to live by the highest ideals.

Years ago I happened to see an old friend’s dad at the checkout counter of a supermarket. He didn’t see me, so I had the privilege of watching the old fellow in action as he berated the cashier for the price of a food item, as well as for some other shortcomings over which the cashier had no control whatsoever.

In my country there is the saying, “I just work here.” yuli, we just work here.

I think many teachers’ situation here is more like what one of our Marine drill instructors told us recruits in an unguarded moment: “If you think about this s*** too much, it’s gonna blow your f***in’ mind.”

No “wink” necessary: you would know from the context of that thread that the statement you refer to was/is meant to say that (in my opinion) prostitution is as honest and honorable a kind of work as any other kind of work that we the common people may do (and as such it is much more honest and honorable than a lot of what goes in at, say, certain Wall Street offices, financial institutions, and so on).

So does everybody - myself included… :thumbsup:

[…]
“If you think about this s*** too much, it’s gonna blow your f***in’ mind.”[/quote]
Yeah, that could well be true - at least for some people… :slight_smile: But i am a bit surprised it is you who runs this line: you have proven many times over that you think deeply and do your research, so i can’t quite imagine you would not handle that reality quite well even on that level… nevermind, i am not disagreeing with you or contradicting your comment or what, just expressing my surprise… :slight_smile:

No “wink” necessary: you would know from the context of that thread that the statement you refer to was/is meant to say that (in my opinion) prostitution is as honest and honorable a kind of work as any other kind of work that we the common people may do (and as such it is much more honest and honorable than a lot of what goes in at, say, certain Wall Street offices, financial institutions, and so on).[/quote]

Peace, I wasn’t insulted. But there’s a paradigm that I’ve observed over the years (or at least I think I’ve observed it) about how foreign English teachers here are regarded, which I just sum up this way:

I’m sorry if I mistakenly saw that pattern in your statements.

So does everybody - myself included… :thumbsup: [/quote]

Well, it’s true. We don’t really have much say in these things.

[…]
“If you think about this s*** too much, it’s gonna blow your f***in’ mind.”[/quote]
Yeah, that could well be true - at least for some people… :slight_smile: But I am a bit surprised it is you who runs this line: you have proven many times over that you think deeply and do your research, so i can’t quite imagine you would not handle that reality quite well even on that level… nevermind, I am not disagreeing with you or contradicting your comment or what, just expressing my surprise… :slight_smile:[/quote]

Well, quite a while back I concluded that I was not the man I had earlier thought I was. Now, I guess I’m not the man you thought I was. :laughing: I can’t help but think about this stuff, but sometimes I gotta switch it off. For me, there’s at least somewhat of an inverse correlation between serpent wisdom and dove gentleness. It’s a tough gig. I guess I’m a sissy.

(*) This refers to the inane test questions and the “teaching to the test” approach of the school system.

What i am trying to get at: as it stands, foreign teachers are individually pawans in a system they are powerless to change. So i imagine what the situation could be like if there was an organisation of foreign language teachers in Taiwan that would work toward developing standards and educating the public about what useful language education would mean, and that would serve to support individual teachers in disputes, help them implement reasonable teaching methods, and develop and provide appropriate teaching materials for the Taiwanese environment. Has there ever been an attempt at creating such an organisation in Taiwan?

(*) This refers to the inane test questions and the “teaching to the test” approach of the school system.

What I am trying to get at: as it stands, foreign teachers are individually pawans in a system they are powerless to change. So i imagine what the situation could be like if there was an organisation of foreign language teachers in Taiwan that would work toward developing standards and educating the public about what useful language education would mean, and that would serve to support individual teachers in disputes, help them implement reasonable teaching methods, and develop and provide appropriate teaching materials for the Taiwanese environment. Has there ever been an attempt at creating such an organisation in Taiwan?[/quote]

You misunderstand the game parameters…it is not about teaching English but rather about making money. Grasp this important point and the truth will set you free.

[quote=“yuli”]

[quote=“In another thread, alecinwonderland”]Tonight’s classic test question:
Correct this sentence (change underlined section, not multiple choice):
Running over by a car, the dog limped away.
How the hell do you teach this?[/quote]
It’s quite easy to tell anybody how this pattern works (try this: “in this type of sentence pattern a past participle indicates the passive voice while a present participle the active voice”)[/quote]

What the hell does that mean.

Yeah, i’ve heard that before… same as in Japan… :wink: (BTW, i am not working in that particular industry here in Taiwan, so i have no personal stake in this, but…)
Assuming for a moment that the situation is as you say, why then do we have all those people here trying so hard to be good teachers and complaining bitterly about the idiotic things they encounter at work, including those surreal English tests? Have those struggling individuals been hoodwinked? Are they just a tiny minority on a sea of otherwise happy players who see the game you see and enjoy it as it is?

:slight_smile:

“a past participle indicates the passive voice”
Barked at loudly, the would-be thief dropped the flashlight. (Also available patterns: being barked at loudly / having been barked at loudly)

  1. “barked” is the past participle of “to bark”
  2. The thief is not doing the barking but is the “recipient” of the barking (someone else - unmentioned here - is doing the barking): the beginning of the sentence is said to be in the passive voice.

“a present participle the active voice”:
Barking as loudly as he could, the dog scared the hell out of the would-be thief.

  1. “barking” is the present participle of “to bark”
  2. The dog is the one doing the barking - the begining of the sentence is said to be in the active voice…

Not pretty examples, but i hope they can serve to explain the matter…

Run over by a car, the dog limped away (passive, as regards the subject “dog”: someone ran over the dog)
Running along the tracks, the dog escaped (active: the dog was doing the running)

Dude, that’s mantra here!

[quote=“yuli”]
Assuming for a moment that the situation is as you say, why then do we have all those people here trying so hard to be good teachers and complaining bitterly about the idiotic things they encounter at work, including those surreal English tests? Have those struggling individuals been hoodwinked? Are they just a tiny minority on a sea of otherwise happy players who see the game you see and enjoy it as it is?[/quote]

I see it as both ways: playing the game while trying to be a happy player but its incredibly hard to do so.

Me: ESL teacher to make money.
School heads: Idiotic things (nouns: people, plural)
Me: Yes, I can chant “Just get through day. You need the money. Just ignore it. Don’t get so upset,”. But I’m indignant and angry because of the fact that I’m wasting my brain away every hour that I chant “AAA, ah ah ah, apple” and that my little students who are so smart and funny and active are being completely dicked over by a system that gives two shits about them.

Similarities between me and School heads: Want to make money. Both are playing the game.

Difference between me and School heads:
Me: I want to make money and in this case, at this moment, that means teaching the kids in front of me how to speak English to the best of my ability. Seeing and enabling and causing progress in these little bodies and minds.
School heads: Want to make money by squeezing every penny out of the kids by shoving a higher-level child into a lower-level class because they refuse to pay an extra foreign teacher or hiring a Taiwanese to “follow-up” with the kids at half my salary, yet this Taiwanese can’t say or read the word “read” properly.