Teaching ESL as a non-native speaker... Advice?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

OK Icon, you’ve convinced me that Taiwan can’t have nice things like other countries can. :laughing:

I’ve worked in a well-ranked university in the UK with a German guy, a Polish woman, and a Taiwanese woman. Same qualifications as me. Not as good English as me, but far far better than any of their students. The Polish woman has more of a local accent than me, because my grandparents slapped the northern out of me, as much as possible. Respected by staff, students and admin. It’s not about being ‘PC’ or ‘open’, it’s about starting from with a standpoint of mutual respect. Of course, that’s easier when students are not ‘customers’.

Taiwan loses out. Taiwanese people pay a fortune for 100s of hours of substandard crappy tuition because of their own childish prejudices and misbeliefs about language-learning. They are being manipulated by people whose business interest is to keep them paying for crappy classes. Too much ‘Oh, well, that’s the way it is …’

22

Erm, I see your point. Problem is neither of us make the rules. The rules, as it has been discussed before ad nauseaum, are there for a reason: you have to draw the line somewhere.

There is no way to evaluate people of all origins solely on their performance by the thousands. Minimum paperwork requirements are set per rules of the easiest, basic stuff, and even so it is stuff we both know people fake all the time, or even if they have those minimums, they do not perform well. But an open cattle call will not help, either.

Think of this as university exams, GMATs and SATs and all that jazz. Truly not the best method, but at least a verification of sorts.

And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a non Native speaker needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan. To tell the OP otherwise is misleading. Sure, there are backroads and alleys and things that can be done but those are not SOP and WILL put the OP in a disadvantageous position. You can criticize and laugh ant Taiwan all you want but that won’t change the fact that sure, OP can find illegal job anytime he steps off the boat, sure he can find semi legal job, not so sure he might be able to squeeze some kind of legalish English teaching job, but surely his best bet is to find a job he legally qualifies for and is more related to his career, which is not English teaching.

23

Of course, Icon, but one of the things that holds Taiwan back is the belief that it is poor and cannot afford to adopt employment practices of developed countries. It’s not. It’s just that the 1% (or 5%, whatever) is creaming the profit off of the top and giving nothing back. These people don’t educate their kids in Taiwan, so it’s irrelevant to them that the middle classes get shit and pay through the nose for it.

24

I’ve noticed there are lots of non native English speakers in Taichung. Their shared characteristic, they look Western or white (I’m sure there are also others that don’t look like that, but I haven’t bumped into them yet). They get paid just a little bit less by all accounts but it works out for all concerned. The bosses get a slightly cheaper teacher, maybe a bit easier to control, and the parents get the face they want. To be fair these non native English speakers that I have met have good English and have been teaching a long time here, most are married to locals so are legally allowed work, and I wouldn’t have a problem with them teaching my kids in English.

The fact is that many parents here cannot afford to have a qualified foreign teacher teach English (or teach in English) to their kids. They just don’t have the economic wherewithal to compete with ME nations for example.

Now if they faced reality they’d realise that it would be much better to use Filipino teachers or to send their kids to the Phillipines (try and find a safe place there of course) to learn English every Summer for a month or so, mix with students from other countries, and learn a bit about the world at the same time. And maybe get a bit of respect for SE Asians while they were at it and realise that most people lump Taiwan into South East Asia aswell!

There’s loads of fake shit like that in Taiwan because people can’t afford the real thing, but everybody pretends that they can. The real thing is usually twice the price of the fake stuff.

25

Ermintrude nails it.

Taiwan is a place to make money for the elite not a place to be providing things that will cost more in taxes for them, giving workers raises, dirty scooters are okay because they keep workers demands for wage increases down.

Their kids often go to school overseas, the family even lives overseas in many cases, double passports, you name it.

26

[quote=“E04teacherlin”]
I meant the government doesn’t make a big deal out of being a native speaker, but as far as I understand it, they are allowed to work anywhere for 14 hours a week. Laughable, but at least a step in the right direction. In Australia it is 20 hours.[/quote]

So it’s an open work permit that they apply for?

I’m asking because inspectors come around and this teacher needs to have some sort of paperwork to be there teaching. The only ones that I knew that were allowed to teach were normal work permit holders and APRC/JFRV open work permit holders. I have also heard of a working holiday for gap year students but I don’t know much about it. Perhaps this is similar.

The reason that I’m asking is that I have a friend taking classes and he might do some long term part time subbing. I don’t think he’s aware of this and I’m not but it would of course be better for him.

27

[quote=“Abacus”][quote=“E04teacherlin”]
I meant the government doesn’t make a big deal out of being a native speaker, but as far as I understand it, they are allowed to work anywhere for 14 hours a week. Laughable, but at least a step in the right direction. In Australia it is 20 hours.[/quote]

So it’s an open work permit that they apply for?

I’m asking because inspectors come around and this teacher needs to have some sort of paperwork to be there teaching. The only ones that I knew that were allowed to teach were normal work permit holders and APRC/JFRV open work permit holders. I have also heard of a working holiday for gap year students but I don’t know much about it. Perhaps this is similar.

The reason that I’m asking is that I have a friend taking classes and he might do some long term part time subbing. I don’t think he’s aware of this and I’m not but it would of course be better for him.[/quote]
english.moe.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem= … =3008&mp=1
This is the only information I am aware of. I know of students who work here that teach English but wrote “promoter of foreign and international culture” on their application. Whatever that means.
I can’t really answer your question in detail.

28

[quote=“Icon”]
And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a [strike]non Native speaker[/strike] [color=#FF0000]person who doesn’t have a passport from an “English-speaking country” on the list[/color] needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.[/quote]

No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you’re married to.

Be glad that’s how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. “That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!”

29

[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“Icon”]
And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a [strike]non Native speaker[/strike] [color=#FF0000]person who doesn’t have a passport from an “English-speaking country” on the list[/color] needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.[/quote]

No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you’re married to.

Be glad that’s how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. “That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!”[/quote]
Or it would be something like “Yes it is nice that you have a PhD in language acquisition and a Cambridge Delta, dan shi wo men Tai wan Ren …”

30

[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“Icon”]
And all this discussion is moot, based on reality. As of today, a [strike]non Native speaker[/strike] [color=#FF0000]person who doesn’t have a passport from an “English-speaking country” on the list[/color] needs practically an Act of God to teach English in Taiwan.[/quote]

No one cares if you can speak English well. They just care that you have the right passport, or whom you’re married to.

Be glad that’s how the line was drawn or most likely no native speaker could get a job. I can see the lines of people waiting patiently to have the oral interview with the representatives in the office of the Vice Minister of Engrish and coming out in tears. “That not correct Engrish! No job for you. You leave Taiwan, ten days!”[/quote]

I stand corrected with the most accurate representation. :notworthy: :laughing: Awesome!

31

Hello guys,

this is my first post here.

I have been teaching English in China for 3 years now and I taught in Hong Kong for a year. I am a 27 year old German and I even got a work permit to teach English in Hong Kong.

My plan is to apply for the working holiday visa and fly to Taiwan at the end of February to teach there. I have sent some mails to a couple of training centers and it seems there is no problem. They are offering me 650 NTD per hour.

There should be no problem with that, right ?

32

I moved some posts here: forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtop … 1#p1577203

33

[quote=“PatrickCh1986”]Hello guys,

this is my first post here.

I have been teaching English in China for 3 years now and I taught in Hong Kong for a year. I am a 27 year old German and I even got a work permit to teach English in Hong Kong.

My plan is to apply for the working holiday visa and fly to Taiwan at the end of February to teach there. I have sent some mails to a couple of training centers and it seems there is no problem. They are offering me 650 NTD per hour.

There should be no problem with that, right ?[/quote]

I don’t have any firsthand knowledge about this, but here’s an excerpt from a post from 2011 in which a person from Germany with a working holiday visa asks about working in a cram school:

[quote=“Hans89”]Hi,

I’m a German citizen and native speaker, I have . . . a working holiday visa. That visa means I can take jobs for as many hours as I want, but they should be limited to 3 month each. Is there any chance I can teach English at a cram school or the like? Other jobs? I’ve been trying via email and phone to contact schools I found on tealit, no success so far, not even remotely.

Thanks…[/quote] forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 5&t=100046

Here’s one of the replies:

[quote=“Loretta”]You’re allowed to work, so they don’t need to get a work permit for you. So they don’t really need to worry about your nationality, from a legal perspective. (This is only an opinion, but it’s as good as any other in a country where you can be jailed for writing a restaurant review.)

BUT, there are too many people chasing too few jobs. If you’re poorly-informed, and not qualified to tell who has the weird accent and who doesn’t, then why take a chance employing someone who doesn’t fit the normal description? It’s easier to take your pick of desperate Canadians.

I think you’ll find it hard, whatever the legalities, just because you’re not a standard teacher.

On the other hand, you could do private tutoring. Lots of people claim to be interested in learning German. In fact, I know one. Send me a PM.[/quote] forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 3#p1310743

Please note that I don’t have any opinion one way or the other about your likelihood of getting a job at a cram school. I just posted the above post excerpt and reply as samples. You might want to read that whole thread. And there are other threads about working holiday visas. If I recall rightly, one or more of them discuss what kind of work is permissible. Right now, I can’t find the one I’m thinking about, and I’m running late for work, but I’ll try to see if I can find it later today.

Hope this helps.

34

Here’s something from November of 2012 (if anyone has any knowledge of any changes made since then, I hope they post it in this thread):

[quote]Here’s some general information from the Bureau of Consular Affairs:

[quote]Activities after Entrance
(1)Work permit not needed
As long as in accordance with the purpose of entry, working holiday makers may work legally during their stay in the Republic of China to earn their living expenses. However, they should not work for the same employer for more than 3 months (The working holiday visa holders from Korea, Japan, Canada and the U.K. are exempt from this limitation.) In accordance with Article 4 of “Regulations Governing the Permits for Employing Foreigners and Management”, working holiday visas issued by the ROC Embassy, Consulate and overseas missions shall be regarded as work permits. Therefore, visa holders do not need to apply for a work permit with the Council of Labor Affairs of the Executive Yuan. However, those who engage in professional or technical work shall meet the necessary qualification and laws of registration for practice required by the Republic of China. In addition, visa holders should not work for longer than the validity of the visa. For more information on related employment regulations, please log on to the website of the Bureau of Employment and Vocational Training of the Council of Labor Affairs of the Executive Yuan:
boca.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=131 … e=783&mp=2

I found a National Immigration Agency FAQ about work restrictions under the title “Taiwan-Japan Working Holiday Visa,” but I haven’t been able to find a restrictions-related FAQ that is explicitly, specifically about any of the other Working Holiday Programs. Anyway, here’s what the “Taiwan-Japan Working Holiday Visa” FAQ says about work restrictions (last updated December 3, 2010):

[quote]Q: Are there issues to be aware of while working in Taiwan?
A: There is basically no restriction on what kind of job you can work for. However, working in a sex related establishment is forbidden.[/quote] immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 09&mp=T002

[Edit: I noticed that the link immediately above does not work at this time. Here is a link with the same information as the quote immediately above: forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 0#p1474650

Again, you might want to read the thread that the above post came from.

Hope this helps.

35

Hello all,

I have read a lot of threads on teaching English in Taiwan and I am in more or less the same boat as the OP. I do not want to hijack the thread though, but I also don’t want to flood the forum. My small question is whether things change once you have a master’s degree? Will it then be legal for school to hire you then as a non-English-speaking-country-passport-holder?

Thanks in advance!

36

No.

Only change would be if you get a passport from one of the 7. Or get married.

And for the last time: yes, they may hire you. Yes, they may even ferret a work permit. But you will not be under the same conditions as the rest of the English teachers. You will be paid less, and you will be more expendable. If you are desperate enough, be my guest. But with a MA of any sort, you have better luck -and better salary options- as a white collar worker, in any trade office, electronics company, importer/exporter business, etc.

37

Thank you very much Icon. A white collar job would have been my preference, but I do not know my chances of that. But that is for another thread. Thanks again for the quick response.

38

If you have the two year experience requisite, very good indeed. Or come here as a student, if you do not have an MA yet, and get your foot in through college connections, if you really want to make inroads here. If there is a will and all that jazz.

39

You guys seem to know quite a bit of teaching English in Taiwan . I didn’t read this entire thread and don’t really want to get involved in this which seems quite old discussion, but I was wondering if you could help me with my question. I am not a native English speaker . I do have APRC and open work permit. I saw you mentioning it a few times on this forum that anyone with APRC can teach English. Do you have any government website links that support that ? In English or Chinese would work. Also does it mean that any English teaching buxiban is allowed to legally hire me to teach English ? My boss seem not to be able to find any information on that and they are afraid that if any government inspection comes they will get in trouble . I would really appreciate any help , especially links to some online laws or regulations that I could print out and show to my boss as well as protect myself .
Thank you