Huh? Let me get this straight now. Anjinsan writes about past US foreign policy to justify his argument and now suggests it’s immaterial. C’mon!
Anjisan, you might have to hire an actuarial to help you on your math with that one. EXXON mines oil all over the world. They are a global company that cares about the price of crude. They couldn’t give two hoots where they mined it as long as they can get the right price. They don’t want to be minning expencive oil in the States, depleting home reserves when the can be getting it elsewhere.
I’m sorry buddy, but you’ve got some pretty crazy notions about the way the real world works. What did you major in Paper Folding?
Asama rants about the Paletinian cause as a rallying cry for his own obssesion. Bush couldn’t care less about Asama Bin Laden except as a means to an end and that is another crack at Saddam.
You are right Jelly meister. I do apologize for stooping to that level of dodging. Do you agree though that as far as human rights America has a better track record than the vast majority of the world? Can you also agree that people love picking on the US for no apparent reason other than “we need to be taken down a notch?” It gets old pretty fast to hear the same mantra of America is soooooooooo evil because of …
Please list where you posters are from originally so that the conversation can be more fair. If China, do you really want a pissing contest with US about human rights?
Grasshopper I love you. Farewell.
I notice that once America comes in for criticism, its own criticism about how every other country in the world deals with its internal problems is instantly forgotten.
As you have criticised us over the years now we shall criticise you.
When I was a child in N.Ireland we were searched going into every single shop in town each and every time. Handbags rifled through, children bodysearched - in a little rural town. Didn’t stop them blowing things up though. Random road blocks on country roads in the middle of the night so unexpected you nearly ran the police/army over didn’t stop car hijacking and carbombing. Border crossing points that made Checkpoint Charlie look like a drive-thru McDonalds didn’t stop terrorists crossing the border. The sad fact is, anyone growing up in Israel or Northern Ireland has forgotten more about terrorism and how it works (and how it can’t be stopped) than George Bush etc will ever know.
I will criticise America’s knee-jerk reaction, because I think it is a poor substitute for a foreign policy revision, but I understand it exactly. Perhaps better than a lot of Americans do. But you will all get used to the increased security and accept it as part of the price you pay for principles such as due process of law and the presumption of innocence.
My only point is that the rest of the world has had to listen to lectures from uncle Sam on Human Rights 'til it’s blue in the face. We have now stopped listening. A typical conversation would be: “I see America’s declared a War on Terrorism.” / “Oh right. What’s for dinner ?”
I hope for the sake of the people living in the States that the US Government will start taking advice from other countries rather than just handing it out all the time.
Part of the problem is that the American civilian population has lost touch with their own military and government. These numerous terrorist attacks upon so many US military and diplomatic targets doesn’t even sustain very much public attention for long. So what?
Well, their military is civilian controlled and the civilians were shocked by how WTC occurred without even looking at the long string of past events linked to Bin Laden. The US failure is the civilian leadership whom chose to appease and ignore viable military options…not just cruise missiles…because of their own troop aversions.
Plus the clientism of the State Department has been a point of contention amongst the military branches on this issue, too. Blame the State Dept for the failures of foreign policy and any of the civilian voters whom elected the civilian leaders while you’re at it.
quote:
The US failure is the civilian leadership whom chose to appease and ignore viable military options...not just cruise missiles...because of their own troop aversions.
I would agree to that but you understand why they did it that way right? I beleive it was because we thought we could cripple their network without having to get our hands dirty. We underestimated their resolve (not the first instance) and we ultimately paid the price.
It’s a double edged sword…if you go in full bore after the USS Cole incident you will hear the European liberals scream that it’s an inappropriate response to a relatively isolated incident. If you do nothing and hope for the best you may get stung in the arse.
C’mon, the warning signs came as early as the Gulf War…the Afghani Muhajudeed types were very difficult to deal with as “Allies,” and those of us doing perimeter security at Khobar Towers knew that we were sitting ducks in 1991. Those dumb civilians in the White House were not willing to deal effectively with the situation, and I quite wisely got out of Army special ops before Somilia and “Black Hawk Down”. Obviously that situation was partially inherited from Bush Senior, but the new commander-in-chief really did a very lousy job of demoralizing its military and for abetting these China-backed terrorists by appointing a very weak Chief of Staff right after Gen. Colin Powell. Today, we’re still left with a very bad overhang of these low caliber career officials surrounding Powell at the State Dept. The warning signs have been there for the longest time and a “damned if you do or damn if don’t” arguments are not excusable for this fundamental problem.
Where is the backbone in times of crisis?..you can’t make friends with PLA factional enemies in China or their Bin Laden groupies.
Where can I find credible information on mainland China’s support for Bin Laden? Do you have some links?
Hexuan,
Well said.
C-SPAN reported that Michael Pilsbury, China analyst with the Defense Dept, knew of the PLA training in the tunnels of Chongqing, China, in an effort to support opposition of US operational tactics and bombing.
Don’t forget those sophisticated optical data cables that were being installed by a Shenzhen company in Afghanistan and reported in the US press, and other similiar press reports.
Incidental reports of Chinese support for Iraq in missile technology and anthrax.
Taiwan Invasion Plans Being Thwarted by “Customs” inspections of Sea Containers…no transhipping surprises?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/7/52635.shtml
Aye, well, I’ve said it before… you’ll not be needing to use much dental floss, eh Jeff? You’ll be getting plenty of between-the-teeth cleaning from all the carpet you’re munching on!
Still waiting for credible links regarding Beijing’s support of Bin Laden.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020412-19963932.htm
China-made artillery seized in Afghanistan
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
More than 100 Chinese artillery rockets found in Afghanistan were either smuggled into the country from China or sent years ago during the Soviet military occupation, U.S. officials said yesterday.
The discovery raises new questions about China’s past support of the Taliban militia and its al Qaeda terrorist allies.
A U.S. defense official identified the weapons found Wednesday near Kabul as multiple-rocket launchers.
Another U.S. official said the weapons included Chinese-made rocket-propelled grenades. “These are things that could have come in during the Soviet presence in Afghanistan, or they could have come in recently,” said the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
Soviet military forces occupied Afghanistan during the 1980s, and the United States, China and Saudi Arabia supplied arms to anti-Soviet rebels. Many Arab guerrillas who fought against the Soviets formed the basis for the al Qaeda terrorist network.
The rockets and rocket-propelled grenades likely were “smuggled in from western China,” the U.S. official said.
Chinese 107-mm rockets normally are deployed in launchers that carry 12 rockets and are towed on a two-wheeled chassis or deployed on the back of vehicles, such as a truck or jeep. The exact details of the rockets could not be learned.
However, earlier in the week, two 107-mm rockets landed near facilities in Kabul used by troops of the 18-nation International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).
Authorities in Afghanistan believe those rockets came from the cache that was discovered Wednesday.
In Kabul, Gen. Deen Mohammad Joorat, chief of security for the Interior Ministry of the interim government headed by Hamid Karzai, told reporters that the 151 Chinese-made rockets were part of a weapons cache seized on Wednesday at a hide-out of suspected Taliban and al Qaeda fighters.
The capture of the weapons is expected to end the rocket attacks on the peacekeepers, Gen. Joorat said.
Mines and rifles also were discovered by the British-led international peacekeeping force.
The weapons were found as part of a series of arrests of people suspected of plotting the assassination of Mr. Karzai. As many as 160 persons have been detained since last week.
“We have also arrested a number of people in Kabul for firing rockets on installations of the ISAF,” Gen. Joorat told Reuters news agency. “These people seem to have links with the Taliban and al Qaeda.”
U.S. intelligence agencies stated in classified reports last year that China continued to supply arms to al Qaeda terrorists after the September 11 attacks. A week after the attacks, Beijing supplied a shipment of Chinese-made SA-7 shoulder-fired missiles to Osama bin Laden’s terror network, according to senior U.S. officials.
A defense official said other Chinese arms have been found by U.S. forces since military operations began Oct. 7.
“These are not necessarily from the Chinese government,” the official said. “I’m not sure the Chinese are very comfortable with having that kind of terrorism on their border. But this could have been from people just selling weapons to make money.”
The Chinese weapons also could have been supplied to the now-ousted Taliban regime from Pakistan’s Directorate of Inter- Services Intelligence, which has supported both Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in the past, the defense official said.
Four additional rockets wired to be fired with electronic timers were found aimed at peacekeeping forces’ bases.
ISAF spokesman Flight Lt. Joel Fall said international peacekeepers and Afghan police forces found the weapons cache, calling it a “significant find.”
The weapons were found in an area on the road between Kabul and the former Soviet air base at Bagram, which is a major staging area for U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said in December that a large stockpile of Chinese-made arms had been found in some caves used by al Qaeda fighters.
A Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman said at the time Mr. Rumsfeld made the remarks that he had no idea what the defense secretary was talking about and insisted that Beijing had observed a U.N. arms embargo against the Taliban regime.
A Taliban military commander stated in a published interview in October that China was secretly assisting the Islamic militia, which was ousted by U.S.-led forces in December.
The commander, Maulvi Jalaluddin Haqqani, said China was working with the Taliban regime and that Beijing was "also extending support and cooperation to the Taliban, but the shape of this cooperation cannot be disclosed."
China's government denied the commander's statement, saying it was a "fabrication." China has said it does not support terrorism.
U.S. intelligence officials identified two Chinese companies that were building a telephone-switching network in Kabul for the past two years.
Elements of the Chinese phone network were bombed during U.S. air strikes that began Oct. 7.
Haqqani said Taliban fighters were prepared to conduct a long guerrilla war against the United States and had maintained a sufficient stockpile of weapons in mountain hide-outs.Thanks, O’Brien, you made it very clear exactly what I was getting at – Jeff’s carpet-munching again.
Oops, sorry, I forgot about the HIGHLY credible report from the Taliban commander. My bad.
Chinese weapons in Afghanistan? How about American weapons in Afghanistan? Does the presence of stingers in the hands of the Taliban mean that the US supports Bin Laden?
Didn’t think so.
More links please.
http://www.uygur.org/wunn21/2001_12_01.htm
Excerpt:
The irony is if China knew that there were Uyghurs with the Taleban, why did they not use their friendly relationship with the Taleban all these years to ask them to deport the Uyghurs? It is a fact that the Chinese were aiding the Taleban, those who are harbouring terrorist in Afghanistan and helping them to install telecommunication systems in Kabul for the last two years. China has also concluded a defence cooperation agreement with the Taleban in December 1998. The agreement followed the Taleban’s help in supplying China with unexploded U.S. cruise missiles fired during attacks on terrorist training camps in August of that year. Last August, Osama bin Laden called for “good relations” between Afghanistan and China, saying this would be in China’s interest and would reduce U.S. military and economic influence in Asia. Despite the UN embargo of Afghanistan, China was secretly aiding Taleban ruled Afghanistan through the “Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Regional Government”.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011015fa_FACT2
STRAIGHT TO VIDEO
by PETER HESSLER
How the attacks are playing in the provinces.
In the video shops in Wenzhou, I found three versions of the attacks on America. One was a DVD entitled “The Century’s Great Catastrophe”; the other two were videodisks
So, when is Bush going to attack the Beijing terrorists? Before Saddam, after Saddam?
Or wait, I’ve got it – its going to be a surprise attack.
No, it is a “strategic ambiguity”.
And if those Taiwanese separatists unilaterally declare their independence under SFPT, it might legally create a “state of war”, too.
http://www.fapa.org/Cross-Strait/Wolfowitz-TI/index.html
quote[quote] FAPA Senior Policy Analyst, Mike Fonte, notes that in the context of this U.S.
Hey friends, do you think this is serious or just a lot of hooey to keep the doggerel buying new SUVs instead of solar-water heaters?
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … lerts_dc_3
What about the fact that these alerts coincide with the Haj holiday in Muslim lands? While it is obvious that the al qaeda nuts are self-deluded spiritualists, it doesn’t necessary jive too well with the broad mass of people in the Muslim lands… It strikes me as odd that the governments are so necessarily heavy-handed these days… The days of the grand old Nixon-oids is not yet over…
Personally, I think the technological progress behind global militarism is a major Achilles heel that we may not be smart enough to live beyond… It is rather sad to think that the world could be such a much more beautiful place, were it not for all the misallocation of resources, and dinosaur rightists – from al qaeda to the present state of the New American Front Line… What a scary dump the world is becoming, huh?
Well now, let’s pay each other to be optimistic, like any other good NGO officer or IMF minion… Be happy to hand out your fate to the super-rich corporation. Don’t forget that Rupert M and Ted Turner turned out to be as instrumental for the new Co-Tool act as the current governer of California: If you own a Bong, you gotta buy a big Gun… Nobody is free of it, my friends…
Prayer can help boost your weak-kneed psyche, but it won’t stop America, Russia, China, France and Germany from selling guns and aaammmmmooo to the goon squads running this silly old Earth…
As I have stated in conversations with my pals, I think that they should give Saddam one of those big chains at the end of which is a big 10 kilo spiked iron ball… Then he can take to the ring with the Houston Astros dressed up in full battle plastic. Then let him take out whoever he can before they take him down…
Yeah. Peace and justice is coming – next millenium – if ahhh do d’clare…
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
Jelly-beans anyone? Astrology by Nancy, perhaps?
I’ve been reading the news reports. In recent days they haven’t alarmed me enough to be frightened for my family back in the States, but after the conversation I just had, I’m wondering.
I phoned one of my American clients, based out of Phoenix, Arizona. He is not the alarmist or easily-swayed type (known him for three years), and he’s a bit concerned. Says the government announced a general alert, told people to prepare for possible suicide bomber attacks with chemical weapons. He said a lot of people are actually hitting the local Home Depot, buying plastic sheeting and duct tape to tape up their windows and doors.
He also told me that business has been weird that past few days. Everyone’s working, but nobody’s ordering.
I’m not one to get frightened. Still, I’m watching closely.