Excerpt from interview with independent filmmaker who snuck into Fallujah during the second seige (which hasn’t really ended yet).
[quote] ICONOCLAST: Good, good. And what has been the reaction to your 20-minute film so far? Lot of people have seen it?
MANNING: A lot of people have seen it, and it
Interesting that you bring up the Nazi analogy. I myself was thinking that if history judges this particular film-maker unfavourably, he may come to have a deep meaning on par with Goebbels.
Oh, wait, sorry, I meant Mengele. No, that’s not the right analogy. But never mind, the important thing is to make a hysterical reference to Nazi Germany in any way, shape or form so that you come off looking ridiculous and you obscure the issue at hand.
Bush is Hitler, and America is Nazi Germany. Sig heil!
Interesting that you bring up the Nazi analogy. I myself was thinking that if history judges this particular film-maker unfavourably, he may come to have a deep meaning on par with Goebbels.
Oh, wait, sorry, I meant Mengele. No, that’s not the right analogy. But never mind, the important thing is to make a hysterical reference to Nazi Germany in any way, shape or form so that you come off looking ridiculous and you obscure the issue at hand.
Bush is Hitler, and America is Nazi Germany. Sig heil!
[/quote]
Let us know when you find the crematoriums. 
If Hitler had been able to develop the A-bomb in time, no doubt he would have used it. Bush has far worse than A-bombs. Why isn’t he using them, if he is so Hitler-like?
A more apt historical analogy with Fallujah is the colonial wars between European settlers and Amercan Indians/Native Americans in 19th century America. Battle of the Little Big Horn. Indian reservations to which Native Americans were forcibly resettled in retaliation for terrorist atrocities in response to encroaching colonization. An American government policy vacillating between paternalism and “the only good Indian is a dead (terrorist) Indian” extremism. The four permanent American bases being established in Iraq will all end up as “Fort Apaches” under constant, low-intensity insurgent attack.
Even that analogy breaks down in the end though because, unlike the American Indians, Iraqi insurgents won’t eventually self-destruct and be numerically overwhelmed and so cease to be a threat to the occupying American forces.
The fact that the eventual American goal is long-term military domination of the political life of Iraq rather than economic domination of its land and resources still serves a colonial analogy accurately.
Aha. The Nazi bait worked. :raspberry:
I shouldn’t need to explain, but the Auschwich comment was an analogy based on the fact that innocent Iraqis are being “held” in Fallujah under terrible conditions. They were “forced” back into Fallujah and forced to stay there while essentially no releif aids was (is) permitted to enter. Is my analogy so wacko really? Why?
The interviewer made a smallpox blanket analogy himself. I made an Auschwich analogy. It isn’t out of line. Auschwich had gas chambers. Fallujah is a radioactive mess thanks to DU.
If you guys want to stop all Nazi references why don’t you petition the Forumosa site owner to [add] that silly Godwin’s Law to the list of rules. I think Godwin meant it as a joke. Too bad it has been adopted by so many people in denial of reality as a tool to slap down others’ right to fair comment.
[quote=“dearpeter”]Aha. The Nazi bait worked. :raspberry:
I shouldn’t need to explain, but the Auschwich comment was an analogy based on the fact that innocent Iraqis are being “held” in Fallujah under terrible conditions. They were “forced” back into Fallujah and forced to stay there while essentially no releif aids was (is) permitted to enter. Is my analogy so wacko really? Why?
The interviewer made a smallpox blanket analogy himself. I made an Auschwich analogy. It isn’t out of line. Auschwich had gas chambers. Fallujah is a radioactive mess thanks to DU.
If you guys want to stop all Nzi references why don’t you petition the Forumosa site owner to that silly Godwin’s Law to the list of rules. I think Godwin meant it as a joke. Too bad it has been adopted by so many people in denial of reality as a tool to slap down others’ right to fair comment.[/quote]
When the Hitler card is played in the midst of a debate without any supporting arguments or evidence to support the comparison it amounts to nothing more than a logical fallacy.
Some behaviour is legitimately characterized as being equivalent to Nazi genocide and oppression but only by offering those credible arguments and evidence. The arguments above don’t reach that standard.
That’s a matter of opinion. Auschwich has become synonymous with use of imprisonment to enact genocide. This is exactly how the arab world sees Fallujah.
I made the prediction that the name Fallujah may come to have a similar meaning for Westerners in the future, after the truth about Iraq becomes broadly known (if that ever happens).
That’s a matter of opinion. Auschwich has become synonymous with use of imprisonment to enact genocide. This is exactly how the Arab world sees Fallujah.
I made the prediction that the name Fallujah may come to have a similar meaning for Westerners in the future, after the truth about Iraq becomes broadly know (if that ever happens).[/quote]
Comparing heavy-handed, often brutal, colonialism to the horrors of Auschwitz discredits out of hand what could otherwise be a strong argument against injustice.
Sigh…
Iraq isn’t being colonized. Your analogy doesn’t work.
The foreign mujahideens and Iraqi Islamofascists are killing many hundreds of times more Iraqis than they are Americans. They claim to represent the ummah, and specifically Iraqis, but the miracle of modern technology enables us to hear the actual voices of Iraqis caught up in the crossfire, and wonder of wonders…the majority don’t support the terrorists in their midst. Your analogy breaks down, yet again.
If the long-term goal were military domination of Iraq a la what the U.S. did for Germany and Japan, then I’m all for it. Who wouldn’t be?
Anyway, Godwin’s Law and comparisons to Nazi attrocities aside, what words should be used to comment on the American military policy of bar-coding all the people they herd back into a bombed out city, and keeping them there by outlawing their right to migrate?
Isn’t that nasty! What a mean thing to do! Shame on them!
Why on earth do the people of Fallujah need to be treated this way? And why isn’t an answer to this question being demanded in the public debate over Iraq?
Here’s another prediction. I think this guy’s short film and documentary are going to be widely seen by Westerners because they are just about the only decent coverage of what happened there. The public can smell a rat occasionally. Furthermore, more and more cultural leaders within America are going to get involved in spreading resistance to the immoral policies of the US military and office of the President. These two movies are gonna get around. At least, that’s what I hope.
(Of course, I’m assuming this filmmaker to be honest in his assertions. I’m not gonna bother to double check, but I hope and expect someone reading this thread will.)
[quote=“porcelainprincess”]
If the long-term goal were military domination of Iraq a la what the U.S. did for Germany and Japan, then I’m all for it. Who wouldn’t be?[/quote]
71% of the American people, 80% of the Iraqi people:
"A large bipartisan majority of Americans oppose permanent US military bases in Iraq and believe that most Iraqis are opposed as well, but a modest majority believes that the US nonetheless plans to have permanent bases, according to a new poll by WorldPublicOpinion.org. . . .
Seventy-one percent of respondents said that the US should not have permanent military bases in Iraq, up slightly from 67 percent who had this view in 2004. This is a bipartisan position, with 60 percent of Republicans as well as 82 percent of Democrats holding this view. The majority rises to 86 percent
Me. Because this is the other side of the WWII fallacies:
F1) “This-and-that is just like Hitler did …”
F2) “This-and-that will just turn out like Germany/Japan after WWII …”
BS on both accounts. Iraq is not Germany. Neither Japan. It’s not even Vietnam.
[quote=“dearpeter”]Anyway, Godwin’s Law and comparisons to Nazi attrocities aside, what words should be used to comment on the American military policy of bar-coding all the people they herd back into a bombed out city, and keeping them there by outlawing their right to migrate?
Isn’t that nasty! What a mean thing to do! Shame on them!
Why on earth do the people of Fallujah need to be treated this way? And why isn’t an answer to this question being demanded in the public debate over Iraq?
Here’s another prediction. I think this guy’s short film and documentary are going to be widely seen by Westerners because they are just about the only decent coverage of what happened there. The public can smell a rat occasionally. Furthermore, more and more cultural leaders within America are going to get involved in spreading resistance to the immoral policies of the US military and office of the President. These two movies are gonna get around. At least, that’s what I hope.
(Of course, I’m assuming this filmmaker to be honest in his assertions. I’m not gonna bother to double check, but I hope and expect someone reading this thread will.)[/quote]
There goes your credibility, or what little you had to begin with.
[quote=“gao_bo_han”]
There goes your credibility, or what little you had to begin with.[/quote]
Oh, give me a break! I read the interview and I trust him. He’s a filmmaker and a journalist. I don’t think he’d ruin his credibility by saying Fallujah residents were bar-coded when they weren’t in fact.
Look, dude, I’ll check it out later, if that’s possible, and post what I find here.
I thought one was supposed to stick to discussing the thread topic or some semblance thereof. Since when is my credibility an issue?
Anyway, if I may get in a little tit for tat, why did you quote the entire post I made? That wastes everybody’s screen space. Use your delete key and keep the thread readable. (Or did you mean everything I wrote reflected my lack of credibility?)
[quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“dearpeter”]
(Of course, I’m assuming this filmmaker to be honest in his assertions. I’m not gonna bother to double check, but I hope and expect someone reading this thread will.)[/quote]
There goes your credibility, or what little you had to begin with.[/quote]
I’d say he lost it at “Auschwitz.”
Me. Because this is the other side of the WWII fallacies:
F1) “This-and-that is just like Hitler did …”
F2) “This-and-that will just turn out like Germany/Japan after WWII …”
BS on both accounts. Iraq is not Germany. Neither Japan. It’s not even Vietnam.[/quote]
I admit to a pat response, but I didn’t mean to imply that Iraq would turn out to be exactly like post-WWII Germany or Japan. Though I do believe that a more concerted U.S. presence there is only a good thing.
The emphasis, though, should be on what practically needs to be done now. The U.S. has been at war in the region since 1991. It has finally toppled Hussein. I don’t think anybody outside the whacko Left would disagree that a withdrawal any time soon would be disastrous for all concerned. So how long is “long-term?”
I think it’s hard to say. Look at how Afghanistan has been transformed in 5 years. An international military presence is still necessary there, though. But if you compare the current period since March of 2003 to the 12-year period previous, the positives outweigh the negatives. No more Saddam, no more “oil-for-palaces,” etc.
Very true. And with that, references of “what worked back then with Nazi Germany” mostly will just get in one’s way.
What worked with Nazi Germany, worked with Nazi Germany. Back then. After 1945. After a completely different conflict with a completely different country.
Who actually was so foolish to believe Iraq is a rerun of WWII? Wasn’t there something about Rumsfeld and Werewolves?
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Hey! We gots one! One of our very own! Here’s a guy who believes everything he reads in the newspaper! 
How’s about th’Intarweb? You believe everything on there too?