Excuse me, but why should they take a break and why should they “lighten” their posts? I can’t recall even one instance where Tigerman used personal insults in an argument unless pushed way over the line. While I’ve seen the occasional personal jab from Fred Smith, he has also made it clear that such was done in gest and should not be taken as anything but sarcastic provocation. Do you mean “lighten” or “sanitize to surgery chamber standards?” These two guys did nothing wrong. Most posters who argued on the opposite sides of the issues did nothing wrong, either. If you want lightened (read: dumbed down discussion), gloves on debate, then maybe you should visit one of the internet forums with a .cn on the end of the web address.
posters like you are amusing :loco:
you took my subtle point and exaggerated it in a personal way 
this is not polite.
that’s ok, I’ll clarify and keep it simple. Fred Smith had said he may stop posting, or some such implication. I think that would be bad. I thought that his consistently laudable energy in posting may deserve a break of a week for him to focus on other things like eating fine food. Stress reduction is good.
now, lightened? Simply meaning that they could let the debate rest after they have made their points again and again 9 times-the tenth time may raise the level of debate above the issues to personal annoyance. I already said I like the IP open debate they engage in, and want to see more. .cn-goodness no. I implied that some of the reactive personal stuff came from the left leaners. I didn’t quantify the ratio. Maybe I should have made a general statement there, not referred to Tigerman and FS-I meant less than you assumed.
Thanks TMT
You are an arse on occasion but aren’t we all 
. In fact I would consider myself somewhat more than an arse on many occasions. Please stay on the boards. What with the election season getting into full swing it should get much more interesting, and we can all decamp to the flounder/flame forums if things get really good towards november.
As for the new moderating regime? Give them a chance. If they start acting like the CCP, well then that would be the time to moan. Until then, no need. Onwards and upwards to all involved.
PS TMT, you’re still welcome to that beer if you ever have the misfortune to end up in Tainan.
posters like you are amusing :loco:
you took my subtle point and exaggerated it in a personal way this is not polite.
[/quote]
What was personal about it? Oh, I’m sorry. I used the pronoun “you”. 
Do you consider it impolite if someone disagrees with you? Do we have to start tip-toeing around here? Jeeez.
I could never replace Tigerman, only follow him. 
I don’t want to be here anymore than you want me to be here. I didn’t volunteer for this, maybe I too eager to want to be of any help I can. Besides, I could hardly refuse when Maoman had my testicles in a vice. But while I am here, I want to make this a place everyone can feel welcome, not just people who think “Fuck off you scum/loser/facist” is valid speech. If you are going to leave because you think I am repressing you because you can’t be as offensive as you like, maybe we’re better off without you. How have I repressed freedom of speech so far ?
Maybe if others hadn’t put Tigerman in the untenable position of having to defend insults and trolling as freedom of speech, he might still be here.
Are you saying that insults are NOT covered by the general right to free speech? Are people not free to insult George Bush? John Kerry? Tony Blair? A Bian? Annette Lu?
That doesn’t seem like the free speech I know.
And what about indirect insults? I didn’t see you get upset when Closet Queen started the “Stupid Republicans” thread. So, will it be OK to start a thread titled “Stupid Democrats”?
I’m just trying to get a feel for the lines you are going to draw.
I’m trying to feel for what should be ok too. I feel insulting politicians is ok, “Bush is scum” or “Kerry is scum” feels ok to me even if it is a bit mean. I meant insulting posters so calling someone “Typical liberal sum” is way out of line, but calling someone “stupid” is just mean, not hateful. I think that is the defining factor, wether a post is hateful or not, and wether is it directed at other users or not. The lines are blurry, you’ll just have to use your common sense as will I.
If, on the other hand, you think hateful posts are ok, you have the wrong person for the job. I was just trying to help forumosa out in a time of crisis. I’ll go back to Living in Taiwan if you just want to flame each other.
TMTM, don’t go away. There are only a few coherent Bush defenders remaining here, imo, and you’re definitely the leader of that pack.
I mean, you were always wrong but at least you didn’t know why you were wrong.
Jeez, big election coming up and you want to go away? 
BTW, I think BFM will do fine here. He obviously got a good dose of common sense at birth, and that’s what’s paramount, imo.
He’s smart, too, and - bonus! - he can fix polls.
EDIT: Let me add one thing. TMTM is the only poster who obviously reads every sentence written here. Not only that, but he’s a very careful writer as well. I think we all have benefitted from his diligence and his care, and for that I extend a hearty and grateful hat’s off to TMTM.
Many of us who disagree with you have found ourselves growing as thinkers and writers here, despite our disagreements, and that’s largely due to the efforts of TMTM. You are forumosa’s King of Feedback, TMTM, and that’s a very, very good thing.
In order to support free speech, to ensure that all people have a right to share their views no matter how unpopular, disagreeable or off the wall, and to promote a lively, provocative and stimulating exchange of views, I feel that the official forumosa policy (which has been overlooked) of prohibiting excessive personal attacks and insults should be adhered to more closely in the future in the IP forum.
I realize some will criticize my position, calling it censureship or political correctness, but exactly the opposite is true. It’s not political correctness to be opposed to all the fuck you asshole comments in the IP forum; it’s a matter of basic human nature. I believe a lot of people stay away from that forum because they don’t want to be personally attacked and they don’t want to watch others attacking each other. And it’s not censureship to want to reduce the ability of posters to personally attack other posters with irrelevent aggressive remarks in order to silence them, it’s a desire to promote free speech.
It’s been said repeatedly that if you can’t stand the heat get out of the IP forum. If you’re talking about not being able to have people pick apart the ideas that you float, shoot them down with opposing ideas, evidence, and so forth, then I agree. All ideas should be open to full and fair criticism, attack, impeachment and ridicule in the IP forum. But personal attacks and insults add nothing to the discussion, and in fact they seriously degrade it. It’s understandable that in the heat of debate over controversial issues such as politics, religion and taiwan women, people sometimes let rationality fall by the wayside and slide into cheap and easy personal insults. But for the most part, such insults reflect a failure on the part of the speaker to respond in an intelligent manner and are a means of getting even by attacking, comparable to scratching the person’s car with a key or letting the air out of his tires. It’s usually just a childish, impetuous response without positive consequences. It doesn’t further the discussion, it angers the target and others who witness it, and it drives people from the IP forum who otherwise might have made positive contributions.
I realize that we all lose it at times and resort to personal insults, and I’m no exception, and I’d be strongly opposed to any actions being taken for such occasional transgressions. But I believe a high level of consistent, intense and vicious personal insults and attacks are not needed to engage in political discussion, impose a serious constraint on the ability of people to engage in free and open speech, and should not be permitted in the IP forum. In order to promote free speech, I feel the IP forum should enforce a policy prohibiting consistent egregious violations of the rule against personal attacks and insults.
[quote=“EEzzee!”]I am disappointed to see the developments in the IP forum. It had been an extremely interesting place to browse and learn. I may not agree with FS or MTigerman completely, or even partially on some issues, but I enjoyed the intelligent back-and-forth open debate. Good job, Tigerman!
Broonale deserved a temporary suspension for becoming more of an ass. Big Fluffy may now be fit to moderate-however, I remember with annoyance the way he threatened Mr. He with banning over a disagreements on some facts. BFM is quite the lightweight-but sometimes interesting. Maybe Chewycorns should be IP moderator?
Why don’t Tigerman and Fred take a week off to relax, then come back. They could choose to lighten their posts to avoid making personal slurs/insults, and to avoid backing themselves into black and white corners. As Maoman says, civility is a quality we should both aspire to and be careful to hold. This possibly applies more to those on the left of the political spectrum who, justifiably or not, get exasperated. Don’t seem to be many rednecks around here.
Have fun.[/quote]
No thanks. I value free speech, think Tigerman did a great job as moderator, and the sooner he is reinstated – the better the IP forum will be for all people. Once you put constraints on free speech, however well- intentioned – it isn’t free speech anymore is it? If people insult people, it is only natural for them to defend themselves – whether they are a newbie or a long standing moderator. Again, the freewheeling nature of this forum made it a great place, and I predict it won’t continue to be as dynamic a place with the new rules or moderators. If people insulted my honor and made accusations against me that were not true, I would fight fire with fire. I guess I am an Old Testament boy at heart 
In my eyes, Tigerman took the correct course of action.
Chewy
The fact that my post regarding my interest in posting on this forum has been deleted is all the indication that i need to realize that things have changed.
It’s been fun and I will post occasional notices on the restaurant forum to round up the next fredfest IV where it will be guaranteed no censorship and Broon Ale and all the others that rabidly disagree with me will be there to enjoy the good ole free for all that we used to enjoy when Tigerman er the magnificent tigerman was moderator. Let’s see how long this post lasts but I say the new IP forum is nothing but a politically censored pale ghost of its former self. Those that cannot make a coherent argument have won but lively debate has lost. Too bad. Too bad.
There’s merit to the argument that foul and insulting speech be prohibited because it inhibits intelligent debate but the argument ultimately fails for two reasonss.
One is because free speech means nothing if individuals aren’t the final arbiters of how they choose to speak.
The other – and more important – reason is because it fails to understand the essence of freedom of speech, its true genius. Despite the common misconception that freedom of speech was devised in the ancient past as a misguided concession to the aberrant and unhealthy elements in a society, freedom of speech is actually the best remedy for dealing with those negative forces and limiting the ultimate harm they do to a society.
By allowing liars, sophists, haters the freedom to fully expose themselves in all their twisted irrationality, the majority of decent people soon see them for what they are and reject them and all their influences. As long as the opponents of lies and hate also have the full freedom to publicly counter those evils, truth will always prevail in an equal contest because truth is stronger than lies.
So there’s no need to fear foul and insulting speech here. Decent people quickly see it for what it is – an implicit admission of moral and intellectual bankruptcy.
Noone is suggesting banning it. Just moving it to the Flame or Flounder forums where it belongs.
Fred Smith did not have any posts deleted. His reaction is idiotic.
Brian
Noone is suggesting banning it. Just moving it to the Flame or Flounder forums where it belongs.[/quote]
Some posts have both substantive argument and or reply along with insult. If you move such posts to the flame or flounder forum you insult the integrity of the thread. Why is it better that foul insults be seen in the flame forum rather than in the forum where they were originally posted?
In which case they’d be better off left, unless too extreme (ie clearly breaking the sites rules abour racism etc). But often two posters just start having a go at each other without any content to do with the topic whatsoever.
No. If you start filling a useful thread with insults and personal vendettas, you insult the integrity of the thread. If you remove such rubbish, you restore the integrity of the thread.
Because flames belong in the flame forum, IP in IP, stuff abotu cars in ‘Vroom Vroom’ etc. That’s why we have different forums.
Brian
Sorry whoever you are but nice jumping effect whatever:
I wrote about why I was not going to be posting so much anymore and I made a comment regarding how the open forum was the open forum and our style resulted in specifically an IP forum being created. Why was this deleted? I could not find it in the flame or flounder forum? Just the usual overly politically correct views that result in the US being trashed on a regular basis but bring up the same types of threads on another country like Germany and suddenly you are racist? Why is criticizing the US and George W. Bush Okay but raising exactly the same thread about Germany “racist?” I think someone who is now a moderator has a very limited ability to undertand intellectual issues and hence everything has been relegated to the realm of politically unacceptable because that moderator’s views are limited by his own limited intellectual abilities and ability to present them. I think that my arch enemy Broon Ale’s temporary suspension is just a case in point? Has anyone ever heard me or any other conservative ask for his suspension? The fact that is has occurred under the new ‘politically correct’ administration is just a case in point. Small men who cannot handle big ideas. Sorry but the IP forum should not be the Oprah Winfrey book of the month club. Some of us can handle a bit more intellectual stimulation without crying hate crime. Has anyone ever heard me ask to ban anyone on this forum no matter what they said about me? Grow up moderators. Just because you do not have the ability to argue or debate political issues without getting offended does not mean that grown ups do not. Utterly disappointing. Reinstate Broon Ale now. Go back to the open forum if you cannot handle adult debate.
Fred,
Not this by any chance?
Stop going off the deep end about evil moderators stifling free speech all the time just because you can’t keep track of where you put your own posts.
Your post was not deleted.
BroonAle was put under suspension before Tigerman resigned. It had nothing to do with him or BFM. Noone cares whether or not you asked for him to be suspended. He broke the rules and a vote about it is taking place amongst the moderators.
Get a grip. You sound like the pan-blues moaning about the election.
Brian
Thanks, Bri, for “revealing” what Fred Smith could have found out just by reviewing his own posting history.
Jeez, FS, your cyber voice is starting to sound a little shrill. There’s no need for hysterics - every moderator on the team knows how I feel about deleting posts - I’m completely against it. I’m in favour of as much transparency as possible. And there will be no big changes in the IP forum. You can still call Bush a knob if you want - you just can’t do it 50+ times in 30+ threads. You can still disagree with someone - you just can’t call them “sphincter lips” “anus” or any other potty talk. You’re a man of some learning, right? Put that education to use - I want to hear insults in the style of Benjamin Disraeli, not my first grade English class. Is that so much to ask? Now kwitcherbellyachin’ already. 
What’s wrong with calling some idiot “sphincter lips” when said idiot had been for a long time incessantly accusing me of moderating in an unfair manner?
Perhaps I should have looked to one of your previous retorts for guidance:
Your debate had been going on for what… one day? I had been harrassed by the idiot with sphincter lips for well over a month. And you were arguing about dog training. I was having my integrity doubted.
Tigerman,
Why hand over the reins of the International Forum if you are so sure that you were doing a good job? Geez, you actually changed the way people posted. The lefties should thank you for forcing them to up their game. Unfortunately, most resorted to insults.
I thought you were a great moderator, but now that you have stepped down (which you chose to do) you should give your replacements a fair go.
Anyway, the IP moderator does not have that much influence on the forum. Who was moderator before you? I can’t remember.