The Biden Taiwan & China Thread

[mups]

@bingobango

They don’t understand the severity of the chilling effect that exists and the surveillance that enforces it. Most of those 1.4 billion people have no real sophisticated understanding or cultivated political views. Why? Threat of harassment, punishment, or becoming a pariah from having to low of a social credit score is a massive deterrent.

Yes exactly. It comes from all corners there. They’re suffocated in one way or another.

[RBE]

I suspect it’s one of the smaller reasons the CCP leadership has a hard-on for Taiwan.

Taiwan is an example that there is another way. And they hate that.

[OrangeOrganics]

Cool, i will disregard everything you say then as you obviously have no idea at all

[OrangeOrganics]

OK give me a ten point bullet point plan for your average Chinese to overthrow the CCP in 2021

[RBE]

Yes, I know I know. You’re the China expert here and anyone who disagrees with you just doesn’t get China. I don’t even know why you pay any attention to these discussions anyway seeing that you have a direct line to Mao in the afterlife.

[OrangeOrganics]

I wouldn’t say that, I would say I have read a book and don’t get my information from Breitbart

[Andrew0409]

Chinese people can’t rise up because the government is oppressive?

What did we just see in HK?

They can. They choose not to because they got a sweet deal.

[RBE]

You said you were going to disregard my comments so you can stop responding to me now. In fact, you can put me on ignore. The ignore functionality isn’t advanced as the censorship tech in China, but it works.

[bingobango]

@RBE

@OrangeOrganics

Carry on living in a fantasy that they average Chinese can do anything about it. People and governments are not the same.

They can’t because they ceded their opportunity decades ago.
And that’s why I say when the SHTF, I’m not going to feel too sorry for the tragedy that will likely befall them.

Nice armchair quarterbacking. I strongly suspect it would not have been easy to at all, seeing the hand they were dealt “decades ago”.

Again, ‘When there is a fire, you don’t ask who the fireman is.’

It is like you have resigned yourself to the idea that there is some critical, generational, collective character flaw that put many innocents in China into this situation. I hope you never find yourself on the opposite end of this kind of judgment and callousness.

[OrangeOrganics]

I said would disregard not ignore

[RBE]

@bingobango

It is like you have resigned yourself to the idea that there is some critical, generational, collective character flaw that put many innocents in China into this situation

It is like you have resigned yourself to the idea that there is some critical, generational, collective character flaw that prevents innocents in China from standing up to and fighting against oppression and injustice, even at great personal cost, the way countless people have throughout history.

[bingobango]

@RBE

@bingobango

It is like you have resigned yourself to the idea that there is some critical, generational, collective character flaw that put many innocents in China into this situation

It is like you have resigned yourself to the idea that there is some critical, generational, collective character flaw that prevents innocents in China from standing up to and fighting against oppression and injustice, even at great personal cost, the way countless people have throughout history.

They have fought, and they are still fighting. You seeming to be ignorant of this or (at best) seeming to discount this fact is a bit disappointing. Have a nice day

P.S

wow oops. I strongly suspect this series of posts will end up being moved to a different thread. Not much Biden here lately. Lol

[Gain]

@bingobango

It seems that some here really have no idea how, over the course of many years, freedom to criticize or to protest has been stripped away from the Chinese public. They don’t understand the severity of the chilling effect that exists and the surveillance that enforces it. Most of those 1.4 billion people have no real sophisticated understanding of what is going on domestically or internationally, nor do they have cultivated political views. Why? Threat of harassment, punishment, or becoming a pariah from having too low of a social credit score is a massive deterrent. Many of them “shut up and make money” not because they are greedy, but because the alternative could threaten their survival and the safety of their families.

That is completely irrelevant to their stance on Taiwan. Chinese people may be afraid to criticise or protest against government policy, but they thoroughly support their government’s actions on Taiwan. That’s what I was referring to. I can’t care less about their thwarted democratic movements. Bless their hearts, but it has nothing to do with me.

@OrangeOrganics

OK give me a ten point bullet point plan for your average Chinese to overthrow the CCP in 2021

The whole point is even if CCP is overthrown in 2021 their territorial ambition will not change because they have been severely indoctrinated, and it is totally justified for Taiwanese people to hate them. We are not responsible for their lack of critical thinking. I don’t give two shits about Chinese human rights abuses within their own territory just like people don’t give two shits about what’s going on in Afghanistan or Syria or whatever. I only care about ourselves.

[MikeN1]

@Andrew0409

What did we just see in HK?

HK dissidents get squashed like bugs by the government in Beijing?

[MikeN1]

Don’t think the average Chinese would want to see Uighurs exterminated, but if you told them they were getting thrown in “re-education camps” they’d say “Damn right- lazy shiftless dangerous criminals”.

[Andrew0409]

@MikeN1

HK dissidents get squashed like bugs by the government in Beijing?

They put up a good fight for a tiny island.

Let’s see the Beijing government do that when just 10% of the Chinese population standing up. That’s 140m people. They wouldn’t be able to stop that.

[Andrew]

@Andrew0409

Let’s see the Beijing government do that when just 10% of the Chinese population standing up. That’s 140m people. They wouldn’t be able to stop that.

Why 10%? That’s an entirely unrealistic number to keep throwing around. What percentage of people have typically rebelled/resisted in any system, even disregarding all the censorship and suppression of such activies in modern China?

What percentage of Taiwanese resisted during the White Terror, for example? (Wikipedia suggests 140,000 imprisoned over ~40 years, corresponding to something like 0.02% of the population per year - why would the proportion be 500x higher in China?)

Judging from the sentiments expressed in this thread, you and @Gain are apparently just fine with a load of Chinese people dying to preserve your perceived personal safety - why is it reasonable to expect your average Chinese person to react differently and try to overthrow the CCP?

And yeah, the HK argument doesn’t seem to hold water either, given that the protests were eventually quashed.

[RBE]

@Andrew

Judging from the sentiments expressed in this thread, you and @Gain are apparently just fine with a load of Chinese people dying to preserve your perceived personal safety - why is it reasonable to expect your average Chinese person to react differently and try to overthrow the CCP?

Remember the Great Leap Forward? The CCP is an existential threat to the Chinese people. If they don’t want to recognize that and try to do something about it, what is the rest of the world supposed to do?

No country is going to start a war with China. If there’s a war with China, it will be because the CCP starts it.

[Andrew0409]

@Andrew

Why 10%?

To prove that even if a tiny minority of people resisted, their numbers would be overwhelming for the CCP.

@Andrew

What percentage of Taiwanese resisted during the White Terror, for example? (Wikipedia suggests 140,000 imprisoned over ~40 years, corresponding to something like 0.02% of the population per year - why would the proportion be 500x higher in China?)

So even less than 10% would do. People didn’t stop in Taiwan.

@Andrew

Judging from the sentiments expressed in this thread, you and @Gain are apparently just fine with a load of Chinese people dying to preserve your perceived personal safety - why is it reasonable to expect your average Chinese person to react differently and try to overthrow the CCP?

I’m not going to cry about it when people that want to kill me die. I don’t expect them to overthrow the CCP, I know this is what they want. They wanted an emperor, they got one.

@Andrew

And yeah, the HK argument doesn’t seem to hold water either, given that the protests were eventually quashed.

In a tiny location, with full support of the mainlanders. Not the case if people supported the idea across the country which they didn’t.

[Andrew0409]

@RBE

Remember the Great Leap Forward? The CCP is an existential threat to the Chinese people. If they don’t want to recognize that and try to do something about it, what is the rest of the world supposed to do?

You’d think they do something about it after 50m people starved to death from terrible policy. But nope, they kept pushing forward with their crap ideology.

I find the idea that Chinese people are helpless victims ridiculous. What do you think will happen if you went there to “liberate” them If there was a democratic vote right now, they would vote for the same system. IDK why anyone thinks otherwise.