Also tantric empowerments are unique in that it is not just about the giving and formation of vows, but there are numerous elaborate activities that must be also be done to authentically receive the empowerment. Typically students will study the material on how to receive a particular empowerment for several months so they can accomplish it successfully. Needless to say none of this takes place in lage public “empowerments”.
Nothing you have said shows a requirement that makes it impossible for massive events to be called empowerments. Nothing. Nothing there gives your little list as a requirement.
To receive a higher empowerment, one must first receive the initial one, which creates a bond between the master and teacher.
If one were to continue practicing after the initial empowerment, they could then receive the next (even if the initial one took place in a MASSIVE ritual with THOUSANDS of people)…and guess what? They would not have to receive the initial empowerment again.
Ask your teacher. He will agree with me.
You just want to feel like you are special (check your ego Buddhist) and that your empowerment is somehow more valid than others. Its not.
You also are clearly ignorant of how Buddhism has been…and is practiced, in Asia since, oh, lets just go back 1000 years to be safe. The whole “master disciple” thing is pretty much a literary myth. Its quite cute you have not discovered this yet.
Check your ego, ask your teacher about the scenario I mentioned above. He will confirm the first empowerment was valid, sufficient and not needed again and the student can thus receive the next, higher one without an issue.
[quote=“Confuzius”]Nothing you have said shows a requirement that makes it impossible for massive events to be called empowerments. Nothing. Nothing there gives your little list as a requirement.
To receive a higher empowerment, one must first receive the initial one, which creates a bond between the master and teacher.[/quote]
Are you of sound mind? Do you possess the faculty to understand what is written in front of you? Apparently not, I will quote the parts that directly conflict with your idea:
And finally:
[quote]As with bodhisattva vows, there are root and secondary tantric vows,
which we promise to keep until reaching enlightenment and which continue on
our mental continuums into future lives. The bodhisattva vows are unlike the
freedom vows; before you take them, you must go for teachings on them and
understand them thoroughly. With this your intentions to keep the vows carefully
will be strengthened, and then you are ready to take them. It is said that if you do
have these intentions the vows will form within you as you take them, and
that they will not form if you do not.[/quote]
Since the majority of the people in mass “empowerments” do not even know they are taking vows, they cannot form any of the above mentioned factors, which as stated are necessary for the empowerment to be successful. Also this is the most basic aspect of the empowerment. There are very many other particular things that authentic practitioners need to do, elaborate visualizations, cognition of emptiness, etc, which is not being done at the things, which makes them not empowerments, but more like a blessing.
Unless your teacher is a Geshe from one of the major monasteries or something similar, nobody cares what he says. If your and his clueless idea had any merit it would mean anyone who merely heard the words for the giving refuge or bodhisattva vows, would immediately receive them.
Drinking semen and sexual fluids obtained from female consorts are written by the “most honorable” tantric patriarch Tsongkhapa, The Great Exposition of Tantras (sNgags rim chen mo) in pp.399-400
Haven’t you heard of him?
English and Chinese version can be provided if you need.
Tantric fellowship are told there has a world, glorified is as Ali Boddha world(烏金剎土), which dreamed by Jêbzün Milaräba(蜜勒日巴), there have wall of skeletons as well as male’s and Female’s genital organs, four arms Avalokiteshvara (觀世音菩薩)in intercourse position. It’s actually world for Rakshasa.
Rakshasa, demonic being, live in the island by sea, eating human being in row, male Rakshasa with black figure, red hair and green eyes ( another version is bell ring alike eyes with green face and monstrous teeth, powerful, some with cattle、ghost、hare head、 human hand, or cattle hoof) while all female are appearing in alluring out looking to hunt for their food (For those non-Buddhist, think about the movie “ Pirates from Caribbean”, it’s not as romance as the sailor enchanted by mermaid, it’s more like plot from “Exorcist”).
No matter how beautiful and divine those lamas put their world after they die, the beings out there are eating meat cut form human, drink human blood. Rest of time they are having sex randomly.
What do the commentaries say? These are metaphors for various things. Myself and the millions of other practitioners are not doing any of the things you’ve suggested. You are simply mistaken.
You should stick to the topic of whether monks can combine their genitals with the opposite sex and not break their vows, the rest you state is exaggerated ignorance.
[quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Confuzius”]Nothing you have said shows a requirement that makes it impossible for massive events to be called empowerments. Nothing. Nothing there gives your little list as a requirement.
To receive a higher empowerment, one must first receive the initial one, which creates a bond between the master and teacher.[/quote]
Are you of sound mind? Do you possess the faculty to understand what is written in front of you? Apparently not, I will quote the parts that directly conflict with your idea:
[quote]
Without these vows shaping our lives, we cannot gain attainments or realizations from tantric practice. This is because our practice will lack the necessary supporting context
[/quote][/quote]
It don’t say it is not an empowerment! It says without the right intention their practice wont be successful. Empowerment does not guarantee success. So you are using oranges to prove apples should be orange. You do not understand the words you posted yourself.
Next point:
You clearly do not get it. You cannot see into the minds of the people at the mass empowerments, now can you? If one does wish to refrain (and the vows are explained…you never been to a mass empowerment have you?) then that person (according to YOUR logic) would have received an empowerment. If a person receives a one-on-one empowerment…but does not take the vows seriously…then, according t YOUR criteria…that is not a valid empowerment either.
So the criteria that YOU have even setup and that the texts YOU provided…still prove my case.
Mass empowerments are just as valid as others. You cannot see into the mind of each individual (which is where YOU are drawing the criteria).
Last point
I can see you didn’t ask your teacher my question…either because you dont actually have one…or you know he will agree with me. 
I notice this thread has almost reached its hundredth page. How much more of this can we take? I propose we close the thread with an online poll (“Bodhi Way–Yay or Nay?”), with the loser–as was traditional in old Tibet–converting to the religion of the winner.
The vast majority of people have no idea what is going on, they don’t know the vows, they don’t really know what’s happening. This is certain. When the Dalai Lama gives mass empowerments to 1000s of people at a time, including the local politicians that showed up for political reasons, volunteers and event organizers, etc, as well as many of the 100s of practitioners from other traditions that do not accept emptiness but see the Dalai Lama as a meaningful practitioner, all of these people are not receiving empowerments. They are just hearing the words. These people make up a substantial size of the attendance sometimes often a majority in poor countries where clueless peasants come to see him out of a sense of reverence.
The answer is, one must study the full set of vows in detail before empowerment, and in the Gelug tradition we do 1 year covering the lam rim in full as a blessing to begin our tantric studies.
I can quote berzin all day long on this, you’re contradicting him on bodhisattva vows let alone tantric vows. If you really want to think that every politician that shows up to the Dalai Lama’s Kalachakra initiation has a Kalachakra empowerment, go ahead, you can’t see their minds but you assume they all have vow formation.
The vast majority of people have no idea what is going on, they don’t know the vows, they don’t really know what’s happening. This is certain. [/quote]
-
It is not certain. If it is, provide evidence. If you ignore this question, then you concede that you have lied here. YOU can see into their minds? That is certain? (massive empowerments are given in all sorts of different contexts, some happen at the end of a week long retreat where the students are educated, some happen after tea, but you pretend to know what is in people’s minds)
-
AHA! So you admit, if one knew the vows, knew what was happening, and then partook in a mass empowerment…then the empowerment would be valid (according to YOUR criteria), yes?
[quote=“triceratopses”]
The answer is, one must study the full set of vows in detail before empowerment, and in the Gelug tradition we do 1 year covering the lam rim in full as a blessing to begin our tantric studies.[/quote]
So you did not answer your teacher. Neither did you answer my question…BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE SCENARIO I PUT FORTH IS CORRECT. No double talk.
And there is more than one “Gelug” tradition, Plenty of Gelug teachers give mass empowerments. Your particular teacher is not the only authority on Buddhis, tantra nor Gelug. Remember that.
[quote=“triceratopses”]
I can quote berzin all day long on this, you’re contradicting him on bodhisattva vows let alone tantric vows.[/quote]
Which bodhisattva vows am I contradicting?
Which tantric vows am I contradicting?
[quote=“triceratopses”] If you really want to think that every politician that shows up to the Dalai Lama’s Kalachakra initiation has a Kalachakra empowerment, go ahead, you can’t see their minds but
you assume t
hey all have vow formation.[/quote]
No, I’m just so arrogant to assume I do know what is in their mind. You are.
BTW, you have not been practicing very long, nor do you have a lot of exposure (and I don’t mean a retreat or internet forum) to other lineages besides your little, tiny, insignificant group do you?
The vast majority of people have no idea what is going on, they don’t know the vows, they don’t really know what’s happening. This is certain. [/quote]
-
It is not certain. If it is, provide evidence. If you ignore this question, then you concede that you have lied here. YOU can see into their minds? That is certain? (massive empowerments are given in all sorts of different contexts, some happen at the end of a week long retreat where the students are educated, some happen after tea, but you pretend to know what is in people’s minds)
-
AHA! So you admit, if one knew the vows, knew what was happening, and then partook in a mass empowerment…then the empowerment would be valid (according to YOUR criteria), yes?[/quote]
For example when the Dalai Lama gives mass empowerments to 200,000 in India with a large portion being peasants, these people do not become actual tantric practitioners. They are peasants and uneducated people who’s practice of dharma is creator and spirit worship. That’s the evidence. They have little knowledge of what is happening. Simple. It is a foolish as other traditions as well as the audience in general that shows up to hear his expositions on emptiness. It’s just to plant seeds in their minds, nothing will actually come of it now.
Which bodhisattva vows am I contradicting?
Which tantric vows am I contradicting?[/quote]
ffs i will quote is again
The bodhisattva vows are unlike the
freedom vows; before you take them, you must go for teachings on them and
understand them thoroughly. With this your intentions to keep the vows carefully
will be strengthened, and then you are ready to take them. It is said that if you do
have these intentions the vows will form within you as you take them, and
that they will not form if you do not.
You are constantly contradicting this by saying that the 50,000+ people at the empowerments have done this. The majority have not done this. And they won’t any time soon.
[quote][quote=“triceratopses”] If you really want to think that every politician that shows up to the Dalai Lama’s Kalachakra initiation has a Kalachakra empowerment, go ahead, you can’t see their minds but
you assume t
hey all have vow formation.[/quote]
No, I’m just so arrogant to assume I do know what is in their mind. You are.
BTW, you have not been practicing very long, nor do you have a lot of exposure (and I don’t mean a retreat or internet forum) to other lineages besides your little, tiny, insignificant group do you?[/quote]
So silly. You are making a statement about their minds as I am when you say they received empowerment, namely that they have formed the necessary mental factors required for empowerment. You’re not arrogant you’re just naive. I’m practical.
I’ve been practicing long enough that it’s very unlikely you can hold a civil conversation with me regarding pramana from each tenet schools pov. There are very few people who can. Also as a Gelug we’re trained in formal logic, debating using syllogisms, so I am constantly engaging with other people and systems of thought let alone buddhist traditions in this way. Nevertheless if we don’t include internet maybe 70% of the exposure is to my own.
A very heavy sigh!
Since when have you got the tendency to become a brain killer? 
A very heavy sigh!
Since when have you got the tendency to become a brain killer? [/quote]
Was not just tibet the tradition was in ancient india as well. Different systems would have academies with various gates of entrance, debaters guarding each gate. Anyone at any time could come and make a challenge, if they made it past those guards politicians etc would show up and make an occasion out of it, but also to help convert the academy should it lose the main debate. They didn’t fuck around in those days.
Talking about yourself?
If you were a Buddhist, you had better repent of your wrongdoing.
It’s better late than never.
[quote=“zeusma”]…There is no point to discuss about qualified or non-qualified teachers as the doctrines itself is wrong.
Be sure wearing condom
[/quote]
[quote=“triceratopses”]…
It takes[color=#0000FF] 6 months[/color] for a decent practitioner to go from nothing to shamata.
From there it takes [color=#0000FF]18 months [/color]to find the inner channels which are used for general tantric practice.
[/quote]
Every true Buddhist practitioners will sigh again while reading these sorts of definition of Buddhist cultivation!! 
Buddha Shakyamuni already refuted the worldly countable dharma in His first round of dharma transmission!
Perhaps you have never read any sutras before.
《雜阿含經》卷13：「「云何為第一義空經？諸比丘！眼生時無有來處，滅時無有去處。如是眼不實而生，生已盡滅，有業報而無作者，此陰滅已，異陰相續，[color=#0000FF]除俗數法[/color]。耳、鼻、舌、身、意亦如是說，[color=#0000FF]除俗數法。俗數法者[/color]，謂此有故彼有，此起故彼起：如無明緣行，行緣識，廣說乃至純大苦聚集起。」(CBETA, T02, no. 99, p. 92, c16-21)
“[i]What is the meaning of the ultimate emptiness sutra? All Bhiksus! When the functions of the eyes arise, they start from nowhere. When the functions of the eyes cease, they disappear to nowhere. As such, the eyes, being unreal, will cease after arising. The eyes and their functions are merely karmic fruitions, not permanent creators. Once the current aggregates cease upon one’s death, the aggregates of the next life, which differ from those of the current life, will subsequently be born continually.
“One will be able to eliminate the attachments to all the[color=#0000FF] numerable [/color]mundane dharmas by well observing the aforesaid. Moreover, the attachments of the ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind aggregates to the[color=#0000FF] numerable [/color] mundane dharmas can be eliminated in a similar manner.[color=#0000FF] The numerable [/color]mundane dharmas are born according to the truth that a given existence will lead to the subsequent existence, and a given arising will lead to the subsequent arising.
“For example:[color=#0000FF] ignorance conditions behavior[/color], behavior conditions consciousness and so on. By extensively elaborating on these links, one can bring forth the arising of aggregating of pure great sufferings.” Saṃyuktāgamasūtra[/i] Vol. 13
Thanks for showing your case, then we can clearly see the true and false of Buddhism! (Part 5)
[quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“triceratopses”]…
It takes[color=#0000FF] 6 months[/color] for a decent practitioner to go from nothing to shamata.
From there it takes [color=#0000FF]18 months [/color]to find the inner channels which are used for general tantric practice.
[/quote]
Every true Buddhist practitioners will sigh again while reading these sorts of definition of Buddhist cultivation!!
Buddha Shakyamuni already refuted the worldly countable dharma in His first round of dharma transmission!
Perhaps you have never read any sutras before.[/quote]
Your english is not good, I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. What you’ve said doesn’t have anything to do with what I wrote.
Also cut this “true buddhism” shit. Your stupid chinese lineage died a long time ago. Your idea of emptiness has nothing to do with emptiness. Emptiness does not mean the absence of perceiver and perceived object like you said. You don’t even know the correct name of the Diamond Sutra. The Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra is translated as the Diamond Cutter Sutra, your text and translation is a corruption.
[quote=“triceratopses”]
Your english is not good, I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. What you’ve said doesn’t have anything to do with what I wrote.
.[/quote]
Well, my English is not good, but I still can understand those of buddhism’s writing of Buddha Shakyamuni teaching regarding His Buddha Path, the Bodhi way.
It’s understandable your can not understand the Buddha Path, is clearly because of all your writing here in this thread, is all about Tantric tradition, the Vajrayana Path, in which explained equally as your mentioned, does not have anything to do with Buddhism’s Buddha Path.
the Vajrayana Path is just a hiding behind - counterfeit attached to Buddhism; which originated from the bible of Tantras, the Hindu Shaktism. “Tantrism roots deeply embedded in the Indian prehistory, the Paleolithic era, Shakti is the earliest known as settlers goddess.”
“ It is certain that a vast number of the inhabitants of India are guided in their daily life by Tantrik teaching, and are in bondage to the gross superstitions inculcated in these writings. And indeed it can scarcely be doubted that Shaktism is Hinduism arrived at its worst and most corrupt stage of development.”
For more info. can also see the following:
The Buddhism of Tibet or Lamaism
openlibrary.org/books/OL23283234 … or Lamaism
Prof. L. Waddell, 1895, W.H. Allen & Co. in London, p. 29-30
“the Tibetans place their faith in Lamas, the sacerdotal priests whose cults comprise much deep-rooted devil-worship and sorcery, and these practices are of Bon origin.
‘Lamaism’ is only thinly and imperfectly varnished over with Buddhist symbolism, beneath which the sinister growth of poly-demonist superstition darkly appears.
There are two primary sources for the demonic dimension lurking in Lamaism: it originates in part from the primitive paganism of Bon, and in part from Indian Tantrism.”
How familiar!
The Dalai Lama expressed the same thing earlier on as well, and that was the fact that he couldn’t understand the meaning of the Buddhist sutras!!
Please see citation here as follows:
“[i]According to the general Mahayana point of view, there were three major turnings of the wheel, as the three main cycles of the Buddha’s teachings are traditionally called.
The teachings that were given during these three major turnings of the wheel are literally contradictory—some elements are really incompatible.”[/i]
(Dalai Lama XIV, translated by Jeremy Hayward and Francisco J. Varela,
Gentle Bridges: Conversations with the Dalai Lama on the Sciences of Mind, 1992, Boston, Mass: Shambhala Publications, p.31)
The Dalai Lama himself has no idea about the true teachings of Buddhism, so how can we expect any member of his lineage can understand Buddhism? Let alone the subject issue of Prajñāpāramitā!
The second and the third round of dharma transmissions were focused on the subject of Prajñāpāramitā, and that’s the core tenet to Buddhist teachings – prajna!
At least, H.H. did try to read sutras, and most of all, he does not tarnish the English language. (Part 6)
“World-Honored One (Bhagavan)! From now until I reach Buddhahood, I will not generate any anger or aversion against any sentient beings.”
Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra
(CBETA, T12, no. 353, p. 217, b27-28)
「世尊！我從今日乃至菩提，於諸眾生不起恚心。」
《勝鬘師子吼一乘大方便方廣經》卷1
Therefore, do not generate any thoughts of anger or aversion against sentient beings; bear in mind the attempts to save and protect them instead. With compassion and kindness, refute the erroneous dharmas, safe sentient beings and let them be fully aware of your good intentions. Consequently, the actions of refuting the false dharmas will result in positive affinities.
“Maitreya! Furthermore, two phenomena will damage a bodhisattva’s cultivation and prevent him from gaining the acceptance of non-arising dharmas, despite his deep faith in and correct knowledge of the profound and excellent dharma. What are those two phenomena? The first one consists of disparaging neophytes and refusing to guide and teach them. The second one is to discriminate and cling to dharma-appearances despite a good understanding of the profound dharma. Those are the two phenomena to take heed of.” (CBETA, T14, no. 475, p. 557, a29-b3)
Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra
「彌勒！復有二法，菩薩雖信解深法，猶自毀傷，而不能得無生法忍。何等為二？
一者，輕慢新學菩薩，而不教誨；二者，雖解深法，而取相分別。是為二法。」
《維摩詰所說經》卷3〈14 囑累品〉
If you fail to let go of your attachments, constantly calculate your own benefits, and in addition look down upon neophytes, then you will have absolutely no chance to realize the acceptance of non-arising dharmas in this life even if you are already enlightened. You will also have a very long way to go in future lives before attaining the first ground. Those are the obstructions that will keep you from rapidly gaining the acceptance of non-arising dharmas after your enlightenment.
A Discourse on the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, Vol. 6, p. 350
《維摩詰經講記》第六輯，350頁
[quote=“iwonder”][quote=“triceratopses”]The Buddhism of Tibet or Lamaism
openlibrary.org/books/OL23283234 … or Lamaism
Prof. L. Waddell, 1895, W.H. Allen & Co. in London, p. 29-30
“the Tibetans place their faith in Lamas, the sacerdotal priests whose cults comprise much deep-rooted devil-worship and sorcery, and these practices are of Bon origin.[/quote][/quote]
Do you realize you’re quoting a clueless person from the 1800s? You should read actual mainstream western scholarship from the past 15-20 years, people who actually know what they are talking about.
[quote=“Buddhism”]“[i]According to the general Mahayana point of view, there were three major turnings of the wheel, as the three main cycles of the Buddha’s teachings are traditionally called.
The teachings that were given during these three major turnings of the wheel are literally contradictory—some elements are really incompatible.”[/i] [/quote]
Yes, as he says, that is the general mahayana point of view starting with Nagarjuna. Most of the important historical mahayana buddhist teachers agrees that this the case, people such as Buddhapalita, Shantarakshita, Chandrakirti, Bhavaviveka, etc. A long long list.
This is not even slightly controversial, His view is not the exception, YOURS is. YOUR view is a corruption with no basis in anything. You have no historical lineage.