Prof. L. Waddell, 1895, W.H. Allen & Co. in London, p. 29-30
“the Tibetans place their faith in Lamas, the sacerdotal priests whose cults comprise much deep-rooted devil-worship and sorcery, and these practices are of Bon origin.[/quote]
Do you realize you’re quoting a clueless person from the 1800s? [/quote]
[quote=“Tempo Gain”]
Just became a bit curious here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Waddell
That boy got around. Apparently he spoke Tibetan and spent a fair amount of time there. A lot of cluelessness indeed in his published ideas though.[/quote]
Thanks for being curious. We know that curiosity is the mother of creativity.,
“ Waddell then returned to England where he briefly became Professor of Tibetan at the University College of London (1906–1908). In 1908, Waddell began to learn Sumerian.[15] Thus in his later career he turned to studying the ancient near east, especially Sumeria … dedicated his time to deciphering or translating ancient cuneiform tablets or seals … ” (Quote/wiki…)
Think it was from “his later career”, he became excessively eager searching for Sumeria civilization, which in turn resulted in over enthusiastic cluelessness pursuit … May I say, too bad; he had a good opportunity, to make good use of his collective career experience over many years staying in India and Tibet; if to continuously contributing his effort in cultural exchange in this thread for West and East; instead made a funny turn to his root searching.
We know the root is one’s soul, but do we really understand the meaning of root?? Do we really know exactly “Where did we come from?” Thus, leading to know “Where do we head to??” When one can be soooo lucky to finally learn the true answer from the correct teaching, that one’s heart / mind can be set in great ease, knowing that s/he is heading for the same true path as Buddha Shakyamuni do.
[quote=“triceratopses”]
You should read actual mainstream western scholarship from the past 15-20 years, people who actually know what they are talking about. [/quote]
Sorry, your logic here really does not appear right. I just can not agree with you once again.
You should really try to read and learn from Buddha Shakyamuni path and sutras. it will really help to clear up the mind and soul; a lot.
wish you luck.,
[quote=“iwonder”]
Think it was from “his later career”, he became excessively eager searching for Sumeria civilization, which in turn resulted in over enthusiastic cluelessness pursuit … [/quote]
Yeah it seems to me a lot of amateur scholars in those days went down the path of chasing a favorite theory to the bitter end.
[quote=“Tempo Gain”]
Yeah it seems to me a lot of amateur scholars in those days went down the path of chasing a favorite theory to the bitter end.[/quote]
Well… I do feel sorry for professor W. his inevitable disappointment in search of spiritual hope in India Tantrism and Tibetan Lamaism, that of dark side methods they used in their ritual practices must had left enough negative impact in him.
Mind you, back in those days, those Lamas and Tantriks, had not yet felt the need to disguise their off orbit medieval behaviors to Western visitors, as they do today with layers of sugar coating.
Unfortunately Mr. W’s time for spiritual inspiration was not yet to come … for the original Buddhism had eventually die out in India around A.D.1013〜1250. Had he a chance met and learnt from true Buddhism path, he would have been content with great ease in mind/soul.
May I say: his case can be used as an example to show us, we really need to have a lot of luck, to be able met in close range for getting in touch with the learning of Buddha’s true path. On the other hand, we, ourselves, also need to have sensitivity and acute insight to be aware of this.
[quote=“triceratopses”]…
YOUR view is [color=#0000FF] a corruption with no basis in anything.[/color] You have [color=#0000FF]no historical lineage.[/color][/quote]
Thus far, are you talking about yourself again?
This thread is aim at sharing Buddha Shakyamuni’s teachings to the ones who have decent understanding and good karma.
And I have got my lineage directly from Buddha Shakyamuni as I have got enlightened mentors and am able to read and understand the true meanings of Prajñāpāramitā Sutras.
[quote=“triceratopses”]…
You should read actual mainstreamwestern scholarship from the past 15-20 years,.[/quote]
Come on, would any practitioner take this as real Buddhist cultivation? (Part 7)
“World Honored One (Bhagavan)! From now until I reach Buddhahood, I will not develop a prideful mind toward any teachers or elders.” Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra (CBETA, T12, no. 353, p. 217, b26)
世尊！我從今日乃至菩提，於諸尊長不起慢心。《勝鬘師子吼一乘大方便方廣經》
Even when you have attained realization and can prove that your master’s awakening is erroneous, you should not develop a prideful mind toward him. Instead, you should develop expedient ways to help your master understand where and why his awakening is false. You need to use expedient means to help him rectify his erroneous views, thereby he will be able to attain realization through correct contemplation in the future. This is the proper way to handle the situation. A Discourse on the Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra, Vol. 1, p. 133
《勝鬘經講記》第一輯，133頁
Bodhisattva Xuanzang (玄奘菩薩), I have taken one of his remarks as my signature as you can see. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang
Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang; c. 602 – 664)
Bodhisattva Xuanzang (玄奘菩薩), I have taken one of his remarks as my signature as you can see. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang[/quote]
Well, its good that he travelled to Nalanda and met authentic dharma, and studied logic and dignaga etc. The tibetan buddhists you disparage are a direct continuation of the people at Nalanda.
They spend most of the day debating dharmakirti, dignaga, asanga, and a little bit of prajnaparamita, but it is useless to try to understand shunyata without a thorough understanding of coarser levels of imputation. I think 3 of the 6 main texts studied in Gelugpa monasteries are written by asanga, with heavy reliance of indian commenataries.
I would be interested to learn who Ven.Xuanzang’s indian teachers were
Indeed, Ven. Xuanzang’s Indian teacher was a great bodhisattva, Śīlabhadra 戒賢論師。
You can read the introduction of Śīlabhadra 戒賢論師, his name is in the wiki.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%ABlabhadra
Śīlabhadra
"Śīlabhadra (Sanskrit; traditional Chinese: 戒賢; ; pinyin: Jièxián) (529–645[1]) was a Buddhist monk and philosopher. He is best known as being an abbot of Nālandā monastery in India, as being an expert on Yogācāra teachings, and for being the personal tutor of the Chinese Buddhist monk Xuanzang.
“Xuanzang records the number of teachers at Nālandā as being around 1510.[7] Of these, approximately 1000 were able to explain 20 collections of sūtras and śāstras, 500 were able to explain 30 collections, and only 10 teachers were able to explain 50 collections.[7] Xuanzang was among the few who were able to explain 50 collections or more.[7] At this time, only the abbot Śīlabhadra had studied all the major collections of sūtras and śāstras at Nālandā.[7]
Xuanzang was tutored in the Yogācāra teachings by Śīlabhadra for several years at Nālandā. Upon his return from India, Xuanzang brought with him a wagon-load of Buddhist texts, including important Yogācāra works such as the Yogācārabhūmi-śastra.[8] In total, Xuanzang had procured 657 Buddhist texts from India.[4] Upon his return to China, he was given government support and many assistants for the purpose of translating these texts into Chinese.”
“The leader of Nalanda, Śīlabhadra taught this shastra to Xuanzang and other audiences three times in nine or fifteen months. The Xuanzang version consists of one hundred fascicles (juan), and was translated into Chinese between 646-648 CE at Hongfu Monastery (Chinese: 弘福寺) and Dacien Monastery (Chinese:大慈恩寺).”
It’s good that you’re interested in ancient great masters.
The Yogācārabhūmi-śāstra 《瑜伽師地論》is a very heavy study, which explains Buddhist teachings in extremely great details!
Ven. Xuanzang’s contribution was just a wonder for Buddhism.
Thank you for your interests.
Ven. Xuanzang was famous for holding the open assembly for doctrinal debate 法義無遮辯證大會 during his time.
It is purely to rectify the true meanings of Buddhist doctrine, and it has nothing to do with personal issue or feelings.
Therefore, I deem these word choices of “disparaging Tibetan Buddhists” are improper.
As I have been taught, I do not dare to disparage any Buddhist, and I have always decently pointed out what are the wrongs in Tantric practices, meanwhile, stating the true Buddhist meaning for comparison.
This is exactly the same style as Ven. Xuanzang did in the past.
If you care to spare some time to read Ven. Xuanzang’s biography. (Part 8)
[quote=“Buddhism”]Ven. Xuanzang was famous for holding the open assembly for doctrinal debate 法義無遮辯證大會 during his time.
It is purely to rectify the true meanings of Buddhist doctrine, and it has nothing to do with personal issue or feelings.
Therefore, I deem these word choices of “disparaging Tibetan Buddhists” are improper.[/quote]
Debating is good, but you have not been doing this. Most likely you do not even know how to debate. The people you are attacking ie. the Dalai Lama and the various tibetan lineages HAVE studied them and they continue to debate many hours each day in the monasteries, since the time of Nalanda and Vikramshila, just as they used to.
You may have a problem with tantra but what is taught in the main non-tantric tibetan monasteries is straight continuation from Nalanda. By saying such tibetan monasteries and teachers are negative, you are disparaging important things.
Also you must have some clue that everyone at Nalanda practiced tantra. Nagarjuna himself heavily practiced the Guhyasamaja Tantra.
Please prove your statement.
Show me, in which verse of the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā that Nāgārjuna describes the tantric practice, or anywhere near the sexual practice?
"There exist a number of influential texts attributed to Nāgārjuna though, as there are many pseudepigrapha attributed to him, lively controversy exists over which are his authentic works. The only work that all scholars agree is Nagarjuna’s the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way)."
Please prove your statement.
Show me, in which verse of the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā that Nāgārjuna describes the tantric practice, or anywhere near the sexual practice?
"There exist a number of influential texts attributed to Nāgārjuna though, as there are many pseudepigrapha attributed to him, lively controversy exists over which are his authentic works. The only work that all scholars agree is Nagarjuna’s the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Fundamental Verses on the Middle Way)."
Thank you.[/quote]
I didn’t say it would be in a verse in that text. It wouldn’t be since that text has a specific purpose, and that purpose isn’t to speak about tantra.
Even if you will not accept all of the other texts which are attributed to Nagarjuna, there is still a lot of historical evidence. For example the fact that tantra was practiced just as heavily as sutra at Nalanda. That Nagarjuna studied heavily with Ratnamati who was a great tantrika. That he studied with Saraha. That his main student Aryadeva wrote many commentaries tantric commentaries. Etcetc.
[quote=“Confuzius”][quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Confuzius”]… [color=#0000FF] So you are using oranges to prove apples should be orange. You do not understand the words you posted yourself.
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/color]
I can’t agree more with Confuzius’ remarks, as you have been playing the same tricks all the time!
Thank you for your time.
“World-Honored One! From now until I reach Buddhahood, I will not accept or accumulate any property for myself. All that I accept will be used only to mature the conditions for the poor and suffering sentient beings to move towards Buddhahood.” Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra (CBETA, T12, no. 353, p. 217, c4)
世尊！我從今日乃至菩提，不自為己受畜財物；凡有所受，悉為成熟貧苦眾生。《勝鬘師子吼一乘大方便方廣經》
This means that only by eliminating one’s selfishness can one get quick achievement on the way to Buddhahood. Eliminating one’s selfishness is the correct way of thinking. All selfishness must be eliminated; otherwise, it is impossible for one to reach the First Ground, not to mention becoming a Buddha. Therefore, in order to benefit and guide sentient beings, one must act with such a mindset so that one does not have an insatiable greed for external assets. A Discourse on the Srimaladevi Simhanada Sutra, Vol. 1, pp.142-143
《勝鬘經講記》第一輯，頁142-143
“For instance, lotuses do not grow in highlands but only in muddy swamps. Likewise, the Buddha dharma will never arise again in those who have witnessed the non-active dharma and entered remainderless nirvana, but rather, it only arises in sentient beings mired in vexation.” Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa Sūtra, Vol. 2
“譬如高原陸地不生蓮華，卑濕淤泥乃生此華。如是，見無為法入正位者，終不復能生於佛法，煩惱泥中乃有眾生起佛法耳。”
《維摩詰所說經》卷2〈8 佛道品〉(CBETA, T14, no. 475, p. 549, b8)
Therefore, the prettiest and purest lotuses grow from the lowliest silt.
In other words, if you intend to attain Buddhahood, then you must stay in the human world because it is the place filled with the five desires, together with greed, anger, ignorance, arrogance and doubt; these are just like silt.
Only in the human world will you encounter all kinds of sentient beings’ thoughts, strange and weird beyond your imagination.
These are precisely the necessary causes and conditions to help you achieve Buddhahood. A Discourse on the Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa Sūtra , Vol. 4, pp. 319-320
《維摩詰經講記》第四輯，319-320頁
I do appreciate Triceratopses’ replies, though his replies only do harm to himself, unless Triceratopses starts to repent of his wrong statements on this thread and dedicate all his sincere remorse to convert to a positive Bodhi way cultivation.
This is how it truly works with regard to the Bodhi Way cultivation!
[quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Confuzius”][quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Confuzius”]… [color=#0000FF] So you are using oranges to prove apples should be orange. You do not understand the words you posted yourself.
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/color]
I can’t agree more with Confuzius’ remarks, as you have been playing the same tricks all the time![/quote]
That Nagarjuna’s main disciple wrote authoritative commentaries on tantra is pretty compelling evidence that Nagarjuna practiced tantra.
That Nagarjuna lived and studied in one of the main buddhist universities which taught tantra is pretty compelling evidence that Nagarjuna practiced tantra.
That his biographies indicate that he studied under tantric masters is pretty compelling evidence that Nagarjuna practiced tantra.
[quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Confuzius”][quote=“triceratopses”][quote=“Confuzius”]… [color=#0000FF] So you are using oranges to prove apples should be orange. You do not understand the words you posted yourself.
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/color]
I can’t agree more with Confuzius’ remarks, as you have been playing the same tricks all the time![/quote]
That Nagarjuna’s main disciple wrote authoritative commentaries on tantra is pretty compelling evidence that Nagarjuna practiced tantra…
[/quote]
Nice try!!
Thank you.
The subject matter here involves Nāgārjuna himself, not about his disciple or others and things!
Your teacher is not you, right?
Please quote any verses of Nāgārjuna’s writings, either from the “Fundamental Verses of the Middle Way 中論” or the “Great Treatise on the Perfection of Wisdom大智度論" to prove your statement.
For your info, Nāgārjuna is most well known for his non-duality teachings – the middle way of eight negations 八不中道.
If you wish, we can start with this subject all over again.
[quote=“Buddhism”]
…If “emptiness” is the whole teachings of Buddhism, nobody could make sense out of Nagarjuna’s “The Middle-Way-View of Eight No” (八不中道), apart from playing around with words through assumption of the conscious mind. That is not Buddhism, any individual with common knowledge is able to “analyze” the superficial meaning of the words. There would be no prajna wisdom in it, and the Buddha should not be called the Unsurpassed Lord (無上士).
If the scholars of later time period could gradually growing and increasing the Buddhist teachings after Buddha’s time, then they should be better than Buddha. And the Buddha should not be called the One with unsurpassed perfect enlightenment (無上正等正覺).[/quote]
