The Bodhi Way (三乘菩提)


Heh, these are hardcore scholars and meditators. Unlike modern scholars, traditional scholars debate the material in syllogistic format for 1,000s of hours, meditate with perfect single-pointed on the material for 1,000s of hours, and memorize every page of the material they are working with. :no-no: This is standard for serious geshes and to a lesser degree the sakya equivalency (loppons etc)

I don’t think Khyentse Rinpoche raised a couple of million usd to give to berkeley in order open a new branch of study at the university due to his “famous family”. He inherited the name, sure, but you are ignoring what he has done with his life. Likewise the dalai lama and matthieu ricard are not holding the attention of neuroscientists psychologists etc due to taking advantage in ‘conspiracy politics’.

Tulkus in general go through hard ass training, its very typical for them to burn out and regret using up their youth to such an extent, especially westerners.


Yes, that applies to geshes, but that’s basically a Gelug thing. Just because they spend a lot of hours doing it doesn’t mean they emerge with a critical understanding of Buddhism, as Western scholars do with respect to their fields. Sure, they debate, but within very circumscribed boundaries, like a yeshiva.

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is not a geshe (or a monk), and does not seem ever to have enrolled in a formal shedra. Rather, he learned from family members and their allies, at at some point started giving out initiations himself. I believe he briefly attended the School of Oriental and African Studies, but this did not instill in him much of a critical mentality. He is able to found and fund charities because people give money to him. In other words, he is no smarter or better educated than your average Buddhist, and depends on his lineage (and film-making) for his charisma.

The Dalai Lama is interested in science, and some scientists are interested in him, but their activity contributes less to science than to a certain (modernist) image of Buddhism as a relatively rational religion.


Silly. The vast majority of modern scholars were taught extensively (many years) by tibetan hlarampa geshes.

Likewise there is utterly no comparison between the socratic syllogistic debates in buddhist logic with yeshiva “debating”. I would not call the latter logic or debating at all.

Things are almost the opposite of the way you assert them to be. I won’t bother responding to the rest, you mostly have no idea what you are talking about, which is ok.


[quote=“jamezku”][quote=“Buddhism”]Buddha means the enlightened one. Around 2500 years ago, the Buddha manifested as a human being (human path) and passed down Buddhism. The Buddha wished to share us the essence of his enlightenment. Therefore, Buddhism is neither a philosophy by itself, nor an academic research system. It is a matter of actual realization. In other words, the Buddha dharmas (teachings) are the Buddha’s personal experiences that are feasible for Buddhists to carry out. This fact ensures that human beings have the most potential to get enlightened after cultivations. For this reason, Buddhist cultivation is deeply interlinked in everyone’s daily life.
There are several fundamental concepts of Buddhism, among others, the law of cause-and-effect and the unceasing transmigration. These are all based on the Buddha nature that every sentient being innately possesses, otherwise, how could the ”unceasing transmigration” practically substantiate with the fact that our physical bodies do come to an end。
In fact, the genuine Buddha dharma is generally categorized into the Liberation-Way and the Buddhahood-Way, but the former is actually included in the latter. In terms of Buddhism, “liberation” refers to the fact of breaking the bond of the law of cause-and-effect in order to have the long cycle of births and deaths come to an end.[/quote]

Buddhahood is attainable for everyone, if we just follow [color=#0000FF]his[/color] path, we will attain “enlightenment” one day too :notworthy:[/quote]

Indeed, you’re right, provided that we follow Buddha Shakyamuni’s teachings and His path.
Thank you for your post.


[quote=“Zla’od”]Really?! How long is this likely to take? And how many enlightened beings can be found in the average dharma center?
Come on, you should have known better!
It will take about 三大阿僧祇劫 to attain Buddhahood.

You will have to find out the second answer by yourself.

[quote=“Zla’od”]… Just because they spend a lot of hours doing it doesn’t mean they emerge with a critical understanding of Buddhism,

Very good, compliment on your wise remark!


[quote=“Buddhism”][quote=“Zla’od”]… Just because they spend a lot of hours doing it doesn’t mean they emerge with a critical understanding of Buddhism,

Very good, compliment on your wise remark![/quote]

It’s an exceedingly stupid comment. Spiritual discourse in india including nalanda and vimalakirti monasteries was refined through debate using logical syllogisms. It’s also the best way to learn and examine anything critically… i believe there was this guy named socrates who was very fond of syllogistic argumentation when trying to corrupt people into critical thinking.

Just like western forms of logic, indian and buddhist logic are mathematical following precise rules


[quote]Come on, you should have known better!
It will take about 三大阿僧祇劫 to attain Buddhahood.[/quote]

But for all we know, I might have already started like, 2 and 1/2 Incalculable Aeons ago.

And EVERYONE in a dharma center is an enlightened being! So are dogs and cats, if you squint a little bit and believe in Buddha Nature.

Western philosophy encourages more fundamental challenges than Buddhist debate does. Debaters are not encouraged to carry their arguments very far away from the preconceptions of Tibetan Buddhism, the teachings of Tsongkhapa (assuming they are Gelug), or even their own monastery’s textbook! George Dreyfuss said it was about as philosophical as lawyers arguing in court. Sure, there is syllogistic argument, but again, a very circumscribed debate. I’m surprised Tri is offended at my comparing it to a yeshiva–they’re both basically scholastic in nature, and center around the activity of arguing about fine details of a certain commentarial tradition.


But for all we know, I might have already started like, 2 and 1/2 Incalculable Aeons ago.[/quote]

If your scenario can be the case, then, according to the 52 cultivation sequences of the Buddha Bodhi, you would have by now be one of the Greatest Maha Bodhisattvas, similar to mentioned in Buddha Shakyamuni many sutras, for example, the Lotus Sutra.

It would be great knowledge and fun to know, if you can check the Lotus Sutra, see for yourself, what those great Maha Bodhisattvas can demonstrate in their empowerment to us mundane human beings.

Which would goes without saying too in this scenario, you would also be a great demonstrator in showing us the great magical use of Buddha Nature. Skipping only empty words fancy names that all those self bragging Tibetan “living buddhas” con artists are doing …


[quote=“Zla’od”][quote]Come on, you should have known better!
It will take about 三大阿僧祇劫 to attain Buddhahood.[/quote]

But for all we know, I might have already started like, 2 and 1/2 Incalculable Aeons ago.

And EVERYONE in a dharma center is an enlightened being! So are dogs and cats, if you squint a little bit and believe in Buddha Nature.
In a way of speaking, indeed, every sentient being possesses the Buddha nature, believe in it or not, and is a potential Buddha as you said; that refers to the Buddhist term of 理即佛…

In terms of Buddhism, an enlightened being refers to the fact that his/her prajna wisdom enables him/her to understand the true meaning of Prajñāpāramitā sutras to start with the Bodhi path cultivation. There are myriad of requirements to be accomplished before he can be called an enlightened bodhisattva, and that is only the seventh stay 七住位 among the fifty-two bodhisattva’s cultivation stages 菩薩52 階位.

So, if you are able to show us those dogs and cats, they are able to render the teachings of the Prajñāpāramitā sutras, I have no objection to their enlightenment.

Now, let’s come to your assumptive claim that you have passed your 2 and 1/2 Incalculable Aeons; naturally, you would have completed your first two Incalculable Aeons’ cultivation and have brought you through the First Ground (初地,第一大阿僧祇劫) and above the Eighth Ground (八地,第二大阿僧祇劫) as stated in the the Surangama Sutra.

According to the Surangama Sutra, the bodhisattvas at the stage of the First Ground will focus on giving the dharma-teaching of pāramitā and the Hundred Dharmas 百法明門 due to their ten perpetual vows 十無盡願 prior to entering the First Ground. They are able to directly witness 現觀 “all phenomena as mirror images 猶如鏡像,” and thus fully accomplish the state of the First-Ground.

I will just stop here at the First Ground stage; even if I squint a lot, I can’t imagine you taking the ten perpetual vows… sorry! :smiley:
Well, you sure have passed incalculable incalculable Incalculable Aeons of many practices, but certainly not yet the required “2 and 1/2 Incalculable Aeons” for the Bodhi path.
Good try! Thank you!


Despite being 2/3 omniscient :slight_smile: , my luminous, nondual consciousness finds it difficult to keep track of all those details from…the Lotus Sutra, was it? (The Tibetans are more likely to turn to the Abhisamayalankara for details like these.)

The cats generally teach the PP by means of noble silence, unless they hope to be fed. Like me, they rely more on enlightened spontaneity than conceptual consciousness.

Oh, taking the vows is easy enough–the trick is keeping them! Or remembering them, for that matter, since nonconceptuality and all that.

But seriously, are you 100 % sure that your interpretation of the Lotus Sutra represents the truth about reality? Assuming yes, than how did you pick that, out of all the other books and interpretations you might have chosen to believe in?

#1071 … overturne/

Top Tibetan monk faces India money-laundering charges

A top Tibetan monk who is seen as a potential successor to the Dalai Lama is to be prosecuted for money-laundering after an Indian court overturned a decision to drop charges, police said on Thursday (Jul 9).

(Extra reading)


You do know the three turnings of Dharma wheel transmissions 三轉法輪 ?
Why three rounds then?
To apply to the different roots and capacities of Buddhist followers, namely from the basic Agamas (First turning of 五蘊) to the pāramitā (second turning of the emptiness-nature; non-duality 般若), and the last turning of the vijnana-only 唯識種智. It’s like our worldly education system, from the elementary school to university.

The essence of all books contain the same, only elaborated from different aspects, and they all point to the core of Buddhist teachings - the Buddha nature.
You can check and see when was the Lotus Sutra taught. It’s taught at the later stage of Buddha Shakyamuni’s time, and it’s rather profound and extensive, in terms of its deeper meaning.
You can pick out any scripture you like and ask me the meaning of them, apart from the fake scriptures of the Kalachraka Tantra things. That would be a time consuming and no benefit to our transcendent wisdom.

Need not worry a thing, your Buddha nature will collect and store (the alayavijnana) all your karmic deeds await your right moment to appear in due course.
Have faith in your buddha nature, it never fails! :laughing:


i find it entirely credible that the Karmapa received those monies as donations.

I had not heard the theory that the three countless aeons are related to the three turnings of the Wheel of Dharma from the
Sandhinirmocanasutra. In fact, three aeons is a minimum, which would apply only to the most intelligent aspirants (like Sakyamuni); those of lesser capacity require more time. The 8000-line PP divides the three as follows: (1) path of accumulation to 1st bodhisattva bhumi, (2) 2-7 bhumi, (3) etc. to buddhahood. (Other texts propose slightly but not fundamentally different divisions.) Of course, it is said that through tantra, one can become enlightened in this very lifetime.


Of course, it is said that through tantra, one can become enlightened in this very lifetime.[/quote]
part 1:
Although the Tibetan monks were ordained in the Indian tradition, Emperor Tri Songdetsen pursued a policy of cultural synthesis. He needed to balance demands from three vying factions in his court – native Tibetan, pro-Indian, and pro-Chinese. Thus, he had the main temple at Samyay built in three stories, with one story each in the architectural style of Tibetan, northern Indian, and Han Chinese cultures.

Emperor Tri Songdetsen fought against China to gain control of the western end of the Silk Route.
With his confidence and power bolstered by his military victories, Tri Songdetsen once more dispatched Selnang to India to reinvite Shantarakshita. This time, the Indian abbot brought with him Padmasambhava, Tantric master, (Guru Rinpoche), to tame the inimical spiritual forces in Tibet.

However, before Samyay was completed, Padmasambhava left Tibet. He felt that the Tibetans were not yet ready for particularly concerning dzogchen ( Tantric sexual intercourse practice). Before he did so, he hid various dzogchen texts, in the walls of the monastery. Thus, they were concealed as “treasure texts” (gter-ma), to be recovered later.

Samyay was completed in 775 C.E. the Emperor appointed Shantarakshita as its first abbot (passed away in 783 C.E.). Scholars at Samyay translated Buddhist texts not only from Sanskrit, but also from Chinese into Tibetan. Others translated Bon texts into Tibetan from the Zhang-zhung language.
(interesting historical story followed next) :slight_smile:


Of course, it is said that through tantra, one can become enlightened in this very lifetime.[/quote]
part 2:
According to some Tibetan sources, it was Tri Songdetsen’s son and successor, Emperor Muney-tsenpo (Mu-ne btsan-po) (r. 797 – 800), who deputed the expedition to the Bhata Hor, in order to bring the protector Pehar (Pe-har) to Tibet. Padmasambhava tamed Pehar and bound him to serve Tibet. Thus, Pehar began manifesting as an oracle speaking through a medium…
Thus, the great tantric master, Padmasambhava was able to manifesting his dzogchen Tantric sexual intercourse practice to Tibetan.

According to “treasure texts” (gter-ma), after his death Padmasambhava reborn into one of the Rakshasa realms; he killed the original Rakshasa king, took old king’s body form, hence Padmasambhava stay there as the Rakshasa king and he would remand in there until the end of the universe.

How interesting. :laughing: I would never want to learn Tantra and follow this Tantric Master to where he ended up at. No Way, not me. Would you?? Why do you like to be reborn as Rakshasa?? :laughing:


Citation needed.


Citation needed.[/quote]
:laughing: citation came from Zla’od wrote: [quote] ** Of course, it is said that through tantra, one can become enlightened in this very lifetime.** [/quote]
sure is, considering it is his/her last seeing human life, before tantrikas fall to Rakshasa demon realm to join their tantra master, Padmasambhava. “treasure texts” (gter-ma). Maha Yoga/ Anu Yoga/ Ati Yoga; and the last, Tantra Master Padmasambhava, ended up in the Ultimate reborn to Rakshasa realm.

We can easily see these type drawings in old Tibetan Tantra Thangka series, male Rakshasas look mostly ugly with demon expression; female Rakshasas seductive and sexy (that’s how they can easily hunt and trap men victims to become their food after having sex with them); lots mating features. Plus utensils Lamas used in old days ritual offering, made out of human skulls and skeletons …
All these matching just as well with Padmasambhava Rakshasa kingdom.

Nowadays they tend to hide these old type drawings, replacing these with new clean-pure looking drawings, in order to carry on fooling people. But evidences can easily be found all over, in books, in museums etc.,

Wake up, good people, pull yourselves out of Tantra con artist, demon messengers, before its too late.
Lamas are not Buddhist monks, Tantrism is not Buddhism.


In other words, you can tell by looking at their art, that there must be some hanky-panky and devil-worship going on!

But couldn’t some of those devils just be…very ugly angels?

Anyway, you’ll no doubt be pleased to learn that dzogchen actually lacks this imagery (let alone ritualized sex), and is far more abstract. You seem to be thinking of other classes of tantra.


To Zla’od

Thank you for being considerate. Would be real beneficial with great merit too, if you would rather take a deeper step to up lift your spiritual level to those real Heavenly realms; or, if can not yet, at least try best to hang on within our human realm; instead of continually fooling around with tantrism evil way.

Yeah sure, abstract … Through tantrism intentional Abstract smoggy bomb, still, ended same with their tantra master, Padmasambhava to demon realms. Regardless all their self bragging fancy names, living buddhas, dharma kings, etc., etc., but actually phony and vulgar, with beastly evil mentality and karma alike.

Sensible people with strong self consciousness can smell tantrism’s fishy from far away.
For people who do enlarged love with care and want to protect others to be harm by evilness such as Tantrism’s faking into calling themselves Buddhism; have great karma merit … also potential to be true Bodhisattva. According to Buddha’s Bodhi path teaching.


If I am to judge religious groups according to my sense of what smells fishy, then I should be keeping well away from the Zheng Jue True Enlightenment Society.

Out of curiosity, what makes you so sure that Padmasambhava is in hell? Have you seen him there? To me he is a figure of legend–more of a symbol than a historical person.