The Canada Torture Probe, here we go

Politics International Politics
1

Yup.

google.com/hostednews/ap/art … wD9C2TCU03

The gist:

[quote]Colvin, now an intelligence officer at the Canadian embassy in Washington, spent 18 months in Afghanistan during 2006 and 2007. He said Wednesday that Canadian officials knew detainees faced a high risk of torture for a year and a half but continued to order military police to hand over detainees to the Afghani National Directorate of Security.

Colvin said he sent several reports to senior military and government officials, which he said were ignored. He said former Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada’s top military commander and main spokesman for the war in Afghanistan, knew detainees faced torture.

The Red Cross tried for three months in 2006 to warn the Canadian army in Kandahar about what was happening to prisoners, but no one would take their phone calls, said Colvin.

According to the intelligence officer, Canada took roughly six times more prisoners than British forces and 20 times more than the Dutch. He said the vast majority of the prisoners were ordinary Afghans, many with no connection to the insurgency.

Colvin also said he was told in 2007 by Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s foreign affairs adviser, David Mulroney, to leave no paper trail about the allegations.
[/quote]

Everybody is denying it. It’s a great day for conspiracy theorists. S**T, meet fan, this is going to be fun to watch.

2

Colvin’s allegations are pretty serious.

wsws.org/articles/2009/nov20 … -n20.shtml

I hope he takes down all in government who are responsible. Bravery like Colvin’s is to be admired.

And now, things will get even weirdedr:

cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/1 … arper.html

[quote]Allegations that detainees in Afghanistan transferred by Canadians were likely tortured made headlines in China on Thursday, just weeks before Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s first visit to the economic superpower.

China Daily’s website ran the headline “Canada Handed over Afghans for Torture” after senior diplomat Richard Colvin blasted the detainee policies of Canada before a House of Commons committee on Wednesday. Colvin said his reports of the detainee situation were either ignored or rebuffed.

The story is of particular interest in China, because Colvin singled out David Mulroney — then a deputy minister but now Canada’s ambassador to China — as one of the officials who didn’t want to hear allegations of abuse.
[/quote]

Well, that’s all awful, if you’re Canadian and still care. But for those of us who no longer care, I am popping popcorn.

I love to see politicians in a pickkle.

3

Canookislovanian Armed Forces involved in torture??
Impossible!

4

[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]Yup.

google.com/hostednews/ap/art … wD9C2TCU03

The gist:

[quote]Colvin, now an intelligence officer at the Canadian embassy in Washington, spent 18 months in Afghanistan during 2006 and 2007. He said Wednesday that Canadian officials knew detainees faced a high risk of torture for a year and a half but continued to order military police to hand over detainees to the Afghani National Directorate of Security.

Colvin said he sent several reports to senior military and government officials, which he said were ignored. He said former Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada’s top military commander and main spokesman for the war in Afghanistan, knew detainees faced torture.

The Red Cross tried for three months in 2006 to warn the Canadian army in Kandahar about what was happening to prisoners, but no one would take their phone calls, said Colvin.

According to the intelligence officer, Canada took roughly six times more prisoners than British forces and 20 times more than the Dutch. He said the vast majority of the prisoners were ordinary Afghans, many with no connection to the insurgency.

Colvin also said he was told in 2007 by Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s foreign affairs adviser, David Mulroney, to leave no paper trail about the allegations.
[/quote]

Everybody is denying it. It’s a great day for conspiracy theorists. S**T, meet fan, this is going to be fun to watch.[/quote]

Considering how sanctimonious most Canadians have been :thumbsdown: over the whole waterboarding issue, this type of development is just karma correcting itself. With only 3 documented waterboarding cases in the US, imagine if it is revealed that Canada used forceful interrogation more than other countries. :ponder:

Why should we be surprised? We taser foreign people to death at airports :laughing: Why not in foreign locales where there actually is a security threat? In times of war, sometimes the suspension of civil liberties is required. Lincoln suspended them, FDR did as well, and future leaders will do it. Giving more power to Executive branches and the armed forces is perfectly normal.

5

[quote=“the chief”]Canookislovanian Armed Forces involved in torture??
Impossible![/quote]

Whoa.

I can’t believe I never heard about this. Jeebus.

You just blew my mind. Especially the part about CF in Somalia having KKK literature “just lying around” and “everybody read it”.

6

[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”][quote=“the chief”]Canookislovanian Armed Forces involved in torture??
Impossible![/quote]

Whoa.

I can’t believe I never heard about this. Jeebus.

You just blew my mind. Especially the part about CF in Somalia having KKK literature “just lying around” and “everybody read it”.[/quote]

Seriously???

7

Yes. Seriously. I was still a kid.
And I am blown away at how much it must be out of our national psyche for me not to have heard of it. Jeebus, we still talk about Vietnam.

And I think a lot of Canadians my age will agree with me. I mean, from that wiki:

Waterboard?

:roflmao:

Thank goodness I have hardened my heart and am no longer a liberal, that’s all I have to say. :doh:

8

The Airborne Regiment was stationed outside of the town where I grew up.
My old man used to drink at the Sergeants’ Mess with all the senior Non-coms, some of them used to come over for dinner.
Obviously this is a while before the Incident.
I was supposed to join up after finishing high school, as all the men in my line do.
I didn’t, basically out of rebellion, and they moved to Petawawa.
Those guys were like the Brits’ Paras, they were tough, mean motherfuckers.
Any guy you’d see in town, wearing the maroon Tshirt, jeans, and jump boots, any bar, no matter the size of the guy or how outnumbered he was, nobody fucked with those guys, nobody.

9

I don’t know about being sanctimonious - I’m against torture no matter who’s doing it, how they’re doing it, where they’re doing it, to whom they’re doing it or why.

Colvin’s account sounds credible, and certainly warrants serious and public investigation. In Canada it is a war crime to hand a prisoner over to another party if there is even a risk of torture. If his allegations are true, I hope that the guilty are brought to justice quickly.

10

Chief: cool story. :beer:

Maoman: The story warrants investigation, sure. A glance at today’s headlines (no more links, I’m done for the day) will show you that Harper is trying not to have an inquiry.

Will this get swept under the rug, or will Canadians actually push for an investigation? My hopes are not good that we’ll get the investigation we need.

11

Regardless, I am confident that the Canadian government will deal with these with all past similar incidents. Why crow about this? Canada is just another Western nation caught in a difficult bind while trying to adhere to its ethical and moral principles. Let’s be sympathetic rather than attacking. That said, I do appreciate the sentiment about having Canadians who may be judgement about other nations, including especially the US, put on notice. But let’s not forget we are all on the same side when it comes to these matters.

12

I think one difference we may see is that while we may get outright denial, we probably won’t hear any qualifying remarks about whether waterboarding is really torture or not. I guess that’s one thing that always bugged me about torture discussions in the past.

13

Oh dearie me…shall we compare the Arar case and the Canadian government’s involvement in renditions with the wishy washy language regarding the all-so-horrible waterboardings… really want to do that? I will, respectfully, desist from discussing any of the matters involving the Canadian peacekeepers in Somalia or elsewhere but really… give us all a break. I believe that this is exactly the hypocrisy and hyperjudgemental attitude that was under attack. In which case, I say let the attacks continue until the perpetrators of foresaid hypocrisy and judgemental criticism learn to understand the parameters that we are all facing. We are in this together. Realize that. Stop pretending that this is about some “rogue” administration in the US. It is not. And one day when the full scope of the cooperation is known… do we really want to go there? Or would you rather have your precious “sensibilities” left intact?

14

good post, but just as there are Canadians who are judgemental there are also Americans, Brts etc… who are equally judgemental, not sure why the judgemental portion of Canadians get to represent all of us? And I am really confused as to why some people around here seem so butthurt by it (not you in particular Fred, you have actually been very level headed). Perhaps one of the many Canadians on this island is making some of your day to day lives a little more difficult (again not you in particular Fred)?

Like Somalia if there is a problem, there will be an inquiry to the truth and it will get expose. If one thing can be said it is that the Canadian gov’t loves a good inquiry and getting to the bottom of an issue, not just issuing a report laiden with black ink as our brothers to the south prefer. Murder raps were handed out to many involved in Somalia. This kind of transparency is a model for all and the talk of being judgemental and hipocrisy is simply messageboard nonsense.

Bottom line is war is war and everyone in NATO plays by the same rule book if Afghanistan. It is fashionable to hate on torture, but when results are demanded the rules change, and it is a dirty little tactic that EVERYONE uses. Does that make it right? No. Should we try to minimize it? Yes. Can we? Highly unlikely.

15

No, I know what you’re referring to, Fred, and you’re right. Those things ARE horrible, and should not be tolerated, anywhere, and Canadians sure have their fair share of atrocities under their belt. It seems to me that Canadian sins are done more through subterfuge than whitewash when compared to the sins of their American cousins. That’s just my opinion, especially after hearing the lengthy discussions on the justification of waterboarding in the US. It doesn’t lessen the degree of Canadian misdeeds, that’s for sure. I really hope that the truth behind the allegations, whatever it is, is exposed. Harper says that Colvin allegations have no credibility and won’t stand up to scrutiny. That’s fine, as long as his allegations are, in fact, carefully scrutinized. And if people are found guilty, I hope they get charged with war crimes.

PS I have sensibilities, but they’re not particularly “precious”. Don’t go looking for a fight where there is none, Fred.

16

This is what sux:http://www.cfra.com/?cat=3&nid=69452

[quote]A senior Canadian official alleges every detainee handed over by Canadian soldiers to Afghan authorities was tortured in 2006-2007.

Richard Colvin told a Commons Committee “according to our information, the likelihood is that all the Afghans we handed over were tortured.”

“In my judgment, some of our actions in Kandahar, incoming complicity in torture, turned local people against us,” Colvin said on Wednesday.

He also claimed that many of those tortured were innocent.
[/quote]

Colvin has been talking about this for at least three years. I have been believing that we DO turn prisoners in A-stan over for torture because I’ve been hearing about it for years.

I think before this scandal plays out we’ll have to swallow the reality that out governments been covering this up since damn near 2001. :raspberry:

source for that claim: torontosun.com/news/canada/2 … 1-sun.html

And deuce, I can’t find the article now, but I swear I read yesterday that one of the troops involved in the Somalia affair is now a commander in Afghanistan. I’m sure that story will surface again, this one is not going away. :raspberry:

17

[quote=“the chief”]Canookislovanian Armed Forces involved in torture??
Impossible![/quote]

The Airborne regiment was long nicknamed the Stillborn regmient by those in the RCAF.

18

[quote=“Sleepyhead”][quote=“the chief”]Canookislovanian Armed Forces involved in torture??
Impossible![/quote]

The Airborne regiment was long nicknamed the Stillborn regmient by those in the RCAF.[/quote]
Air Farce?
Give Over!

That said, the Canadian Airborne were doomed from the start. The size of the CF and it’s already strong regimental tradition negate such a pretentious waste of resources.
Said tradition also entails a long history of prisoner-taking. Or not, as oft was the case.
Yet, in today’s army, it’s usually such that avoidable excesses occur mainly due to poor leadership. Which in the CF means shite lower level officers, silverback ladder leapers, or pogue lifer NCOs.

19

Sorry, one last point… I would hardly call a major legal investigation by the top attorneys in the White House to examine the legalities and treaty commitments of our nation regarding revised and enhanced interrogation methods a whitewash or a subterfuge or anything of the kind. It was done highly publicly and this is where the debate occurred and became quite heated because of it. Subsequently, these policies were revised again by the same Bush administration. People can disagree with the various aspects but this was not done in a concealed or sneaky fashion. And all such changes would have been given to the various Senate and House committees involved… with both Republicans and Democrats advised of exactly what was going on.

20

Sorry, Fred. My fault - I wasn’t being clear. The whitewash I was referring to was the very public and highly visible debate on torture, and whether or not waterboarding constituted torture. Euphemistically calling it an “interrogation technique” is the whitewash I was referring to. It looks like Canadians have probably aided and abetted people using these techniques, but it seems to have been done more surreptitiously than the Americans. Unlike the Americans, I’m pretty sure no Canadian pol would get very far defending waterboarding to the public, so in this way, the Americans have taken a pretty sordid practice and made it more palatable to the general public - that’s the whitewashing I’m talking about.