That may be true for the more partisan folk. However less partisan people on both sides talk about concerns of worsening relations between the two groups. I think a large part of the reason was the Chen Shui-bian regime’s attempt to appeal to ethic Hoklo chauvinism. It is a shame the DPP never made more of an effort to define Taiwanese identity in more inclusive terms. Given this, it is hardly surprising that many people feel threatened by TI.
However the fault is not all with the DPP. Because the KMT is still well ahead of the DPP in terms of resources, media control, institutional support etc., it is very difficult for the DPP to compete. In this position, it is very tempting for the DPP to resort to appeals to Taiwanese nationalism. More effort is needed to address this imbalance.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
This is nonsense, as the urge to maintain the status quo is as powerful as any need for self-determination. Even if all the countries of the world allowed any province or territory to separate the number that would do so would be tiny. Inertia, uncertainty, and apathy (to say nothing of the expenses) would keep countries together. There are only a few hotspots in the world where independence sentiments are truly strong enough to be taken seriously. Taiwan is one of those places. Hence, given the rarity of the true independence movement, and given the solid historical arguments that taiwanese independence supporters have, and given that the clear majority of people in taiwan want independence, and would vote for it in a second if it were not for Beijing’s belligerence, then there is all the reason to support it.[/quote]
I think most of the world’s literally hundreds of active independence movements would vehemently disagree with you that they’re not true or seriously, but no doubt any one of them’s case would be a lot stronger if they have the kind relations with the US that Taiwan has (ie Taiwan relations act), or a firebrand leader like CSB to stir up secessionist sentiments.
It is also not clear that the majority of people in Taiwan want independence, as all the polls taken regarding this matter have shown that most people want to maintain the status quo.
You know what else I think? The notion of a Taiwan independence vote(and indeed the whole independence movement) is illogical because the TI advocates already think Taiwan is independent. So what’s the need to pursue TI if Taiwan is already independent? That would be saying at present, Taiwan is not independent, thus the need to pursue TI.
That’s a new one. So you don’t get to secede if doing so adversely impacts the rest of the country. Frankly I think all secession does that, it’s only a matter of degrees of impact
That’s a new one. So you don’t get to secede if doing so adversely impacts the rest of the country. Frankly I think all secession does that, it’s only a matter of degrees of impact[/quote]
Well, that’s exactly my point. Places that are geographically and politically integrated will have a bigger impact on all involved. As opposed to other places that are based upon strategic, racial/cultural, or historical relationships. If Hawaii seceded the impact would be just slightly different than if Texas seceded…
[quote=“ABC”]You know what else I think? The notion of a Taiwan independence vote(and indeed the whole independence movement) is illogical because the TI advocates already think Taiwan is independent. So what’s the need to pursue TI if Taiwan is already independent? That would be saying at present, Taiwan is not independent, thus the need to pursue TI.
[/quote]
Independent in a sense BUT not quite indepedent at the same time. Taiwan isn’t “recognized” as an independent state, globally, due to those nice lovely missiles that keep the “status quo” in tact by force. So, I think Taiwan is still a neutral state even though it’s independent already. That still leaves Taiwan in a sort of shaky situation because it’s in limbo since it never declared “open” independence.
I am not so sure about this. Without those missiles, the rest of the world - and China - would still not recognize Taiwan as an independent state.[/quote]
Even so… Taiwan’s got more missiles, enough missiles to establish a missile command branch
[quote=“Mawvellous”] I think a large part of the reason was the Chen Shui-bian regime’s attempt to appeal to ethic Hoklo chauvinism. It is a shame the DPP never made more of an effort to define Taiwanese identity in more inclusive terms. Given this, it is hardly surprising that many people feel threatened by TI.[/quote] You are saying that people fear TI because they feel threatened by Hoklo chauvanism. I don’t agree. The number of people who actually fear TI because of ‘Hoklo supremacy’ is miniscule compared to the people that feel threatened by the backlash from China.
my wife is Taiwanese, but all her papers from our marriage, mortgage and house ownership says she is Chinese… you don’t even imagine how she was when she saw the paperwork…
[quote=“goingstrong”][quote=“reztrop”]Taiwan is already independent, under the name Republic of China.
What’s the point of seeking TI if TI already exists?[/quote]
D To see Taiwan without all those extra names attatched to it. [/quote]
The TI people probably don’t know this, but when unification is achieved, Taiwan won’t have any of those extra names attached to it. You know? like Hong Kong.
There’s a good reason that right now China is insisting on the extra names, like for Taiwan to be known as “Chinese Taipei”. It won’t be when there’s unification.
While the TI people want Taiwan to be known as just Taiwan, it is indeed very ironic that this can be achieved with unification, and not the current de-facto independence.
[quote=“ABC”]The TI people probably don’t know this, but when unification is achieved, Taiwan won’t have any of those extra names attached to it. You know? like Hong Kong.
There’s a good reason that right now China is insisting on the extra names, like for Taiwan to be known as “Chinese Taipei”. It won’t be when there’s unification.
While the TI people want Taiwan to be known as just Taiwan, it is indeed very ironic that this can be achieved with unification, and not the current de-facto independence.[/quote]
[quote=“ABC”]
The TI people probably don’t know this, but when unification is achieved, Taiwan won’t have any of those extra names attached to it. You know? like Hong Kong.
There’s a good reason that right now China is insisting on the extra names, like for Taiwan to be known as “Chinese Taipei”. It won’t be when there’s unification.
While the TI people want Taiwan to be known as just Taiwan, it is indeed very ironic that this can be achieved with unification, and not the current de-facto independence.[/quote]
Sorry, but reunification is not going to happen. Beijing uses the Taiwan issue for its own nationalist purposes, and isn’t really interested in reunification.
The problem the TI people have to acknowledge is that while an independent Republic of China is possible, any “Republic of Taiwan” is absolutely inconceivable. Not only China, but also the US and all other major powers are committed to a “one China” policy. This policy does however allow for enough deliberate ambiguity for the ROC to continue to exist, it does however rule out the possibility of “independence” for the foreseeable future. The DPP know this, but they continue to manipulate the issue for electoral purposes. Why can’t a Republic of China, provided that it acknowledges the different cultural heritages of Taiwan (including Chinese and indigenous), represent the Taiwanese people? What will getting rid of Chinese cultural heritage achieve? Is it really possible, or even desirable, to separate “Chinese” and “Taiwanese”?
[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”][quote=“ABC”]The TI people probably don’t know this, but when unification is achieved, Taiwan won’t have any of those extra names attached to it. You know? like Hong Kong.
There’s a good reason that right now China is insisting on the extra names, like for Taiwan to be known as “Chinese Taipei”. It won’t be when there’s unification.
While the TI people want Taiwan to be known as just Taiwan, it is indeed very ironic that this can be achieved with unification, and not the current de-facto independence.[/quote]
Mmm, “Taiwan SAR”. Not quite the same ring to it.[/quote]
Not really, Hong Kong gets to use just “Hong Kong” in Olympics and other international organizations. I don’t see China insisting on HK to use extra names(like Chinese Hong Kong or Hong Kong SAR.)
Not really, Hong Kong gets use just “Hong Kong” in Olympics and other international organizations. I don’t see China insisting on HK to use extra names(like Chinese Hong Kong or Hong Kong SAR.)[/quote]
Hong Kong has participated under the name “Hong Kong, China” since the handover.
This is the one thing I never quite understood with this kind of mindset. People think that by a country gaining a “name” for itself means that it’ll get rid of its cultural heritage? That’ll be like Canada getting rid of everything French in its country or Singoporeans getting rid of all of its Chinese influence in its food. Which really can’t happen.
Just to remind you, Taiwan doesn’t just have Chinese influence. It also has Japanese. So, you can’t rule out both worlds. Taiwan is now a blend of it, plus, aboriginal so it makes it diverse as it is.
This is the one thing I never quite understood with this kind of mindset. People think that by a country gaining a “name” for itself means that it’ll get rid of its cultural heritage? That’ll be like Canada getting rid of everything French in its country or Singoporeans getting rid of all of its Chinese influence in its food. Which really can’t happen.
Just to remind you, Taiwan doesn’t just have Chinese influence. It also has Japanese. So, you can’t rule out both worlds. Taiwan is now a blend of it, plus, aboriginal so it makes it diverse as it is.
Well, I’m tired of being mistaken for Chinese. >D[/quote]
Right, maybe I misrepresented the DPP “qu zhongguohua” (Desinicization) as meaning “getting rid of Chinese cultural heritage”. The problem is that the meaning of “qu zhongguohua” is not clearly defined.
Wikipedia has a useful overview (in Chinese).
As for being Chinese. Taiwanese people are not Chinese in the sense of being PRC citizens. However I think most Taiwanese would regard themselves as Chinese (huaren) in a broader ethnic or cultural sense, in the same way as people from Singapore or overseas Chinese. Anyway identity should be up to the individual to decide, I guess you can understand how the Scots feel when people call them English.
‘De-sinicization’ (qùzhōngguóhuà) is a KMT propaganda term intended to demonize ‘localization’ (běntǔhuà),the policy of recruiting more ethnic Taiwanese to government positions in the 1970s and 1980s and emphasizing Taiwanese identity in the 1990s and 2000s.
But the localization policy came from the KMT, in particular Jiang Jingguo. Why would the KMT invent a propaganda term to demonize their own policy?
More accurately “de-sinicization” was used to describe DPP localization efforts after 2000, especially the “rectification” of names.
