The coming war with Iran?

Politics International Politics
61

Why does that surprise you? spook sees conspiracies everywhere.[/quote]

Actually, I don’t think spook really puts much stock in what Cheney says being true. I guess what I should have said is that I’m surprised that spook would offer up something as weak as a quote from Cheney (especially “all options are on the table”, something politicians in these situations are going say no matter what) as evidence that a war with Iran is possible.

My guess is that spook’s belief that a war with Iran is going to happen is based on other evidence, and that the Cheney quote was just a convenient way to provide a quick response.

It just made me smile when I read it, thinking about how convinced spook would be if someone were to offer him a quote from Dick Cheney as evidence that a particular argument was correct.

Can you picture it? … :laughing:

[quote=“Hobbes’s imagination”][color=red]Poster X:[/color] What you don’t seem to understand, spook, is that the insurgency in Iraq is in its final days. It’s almost over!

[color=blue]spook: [/color]: No it isn’t. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

[color=red]Poster X:[/color] [url=CNN.com - Iraq insurgency in 'last throes,' Cheney says - May 31, 2005]Iraq insurgency in ‘last throes,’ Cheney says

“The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline. I think they’re in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.”[/url]

[color=blue]spook: [/color]Wow! Okay, it sure looks like I was wrong about that. Thanks for setting me straight there, Poster X. If Cheney says they’re in the last throes then they must be in the last throes. His word is good enough for me. :uhhuh:[/quote]

62

Why does that surprise you? spook sees conspiracies everywhere.[/quote]

Conspiracies such as Iraq was teeming with weapons of mass destruction in 2003? Iraq was in cahoots with al Qaeda? Muslims are conspiring to take over Europe? Iran is building nuclear weapons? Syria absconded with Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction arsenal? Those sorts of conspiracies?

Or this sort?:

“The rhetoric around Iran sounds like 2003 and Iraq all over again.”
– Sen. Jay Rockefeller, chairman Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

63

So Spook, all conspiracies, no dangers? Anything to say about your prediction that the other nations in the region would not be threatened by Iran? any of them er developing nuclear weapons of their own or considering doing so and if so why?

Also, what makes you think that you can stop us? After all, you failed miserably over Iraq. Why not go for broke and lose on this one too? WE are all powerful; nothing can stop us. BWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

64

[quote=“fred smith”]So Spook, all conspiracies, no dangers? Anything to say about your prediction that the other nations in the region would not be threatened by Iran? any of them er developing nuclear weapons of their own or considering doing so and if so why?

Also, what makes you think that you can stop us? After all, you failed miserably over Iraq. Why not go for broke and lose on this one too? WE are all powerful; nothing can stop us. BWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH[/quote]

Actually, a bunch of raggedy-ass insurgents with improvised weapons seem to be doing a pretty good job.

65

It’s deja vu all over again:

[quote]The cache included what Maj. Marty Weber, a master explosives ordnance technician, said was C-4 explosive, a white substance, in clear plastic bags with red labels that he said contained serial numbers and other information that clearly marked it as Iranian.

But while the find gave experts much more information on the makings of the E.F.P.’s, which the American military has repeatedly argued must originate in Iran, the cache also included items that appeared to cloud the issue.

Among the confusing elements were cardboard boxes of the gray plastic PVC tubes used to make the canisters. The boxes appeared to contain shipments of tubes directly from factories in the Middle East, none of them in Iran. One box said in English that the tubes inside had been made in the United Arab Emirates and another said, in Arabic, “plastic made in Haditha,” a restive Sunni town on the Euphrates River in Iraq.

The box marked U.A.E. provided a phone number for the manufacturer there. A call to that number late Monday encountered only an answering machine that said, “Leave your number and we will call you back.”

Other analysts have expressed skepticism that the American military has made a strong case for the Iranian origin of the E.F.P.’s as tensions are running high between the United States and Iran over its nuclear program.

Items in the cache included the concave copper dishes called liners that cap the canisters and roll into deadly armor-piercing slugs when the explosive detonates. [that were discovered last month being made in a machine shop in Baghdad- MikeN]There were also various kinds of electronics, presumably for arming and triggering the devices, the PVC tubes, and two types of rockets and mortar shells that Major Weber said had markings and construction that identified them as being Iranian in origin.

The PVC tubes, of several different sizes, appeared to be fittings of the kind of used to splice two stretches of PVC tube together in routine applications.

“It’s worth pursuing that it’s machine-made and you can track the country of origin,” said Maj. Jeremy Siegrist of the First Cavalry Division. “And it’s manufactured for a specific purpose.”

That raised the possibility that the parts were purchased on the open market and that the liners were then manufactured to the right size to cap the fittings.[/quote]

nytimes.com/2007/02/27/world/middleeast

online.wsj.com/article_email

And while the Iranian government is vehemently denying this and denouncing it as a US fabrication to use as an excuse to attack Iran, they are so dumb that they’re shipping this stuff in plastic bags marked “Made in Iran”… what, the elite Quds force couldn’t find clear plastic Baggies?

Brings back nostalgia for those mushroom-cloud-shaped smoking guns, Nigerien yellowcake, aluminum tubes, Flying Drones of Death, CurveBall’s
mobile bioweapons labs, and of course that top-secret hush-hush poison gas smuggled out of Iraq in bright yellow barrels with skull-and-crossbones painted on the side.

66

[quote=“fred smith”]So Spook, all conspiracies, no dangers? Anything to say about your prediction that the other nations in the region would not be threatened by Iran? any of them er developing nuclear weapons of their own or considering doing so and if so why?

Also, what makes you think that you can stop us? After all, you failed miserably over Iraq. Why not go for broke and lose on this one too? WE are all powerful; nothing can stop us. BWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH[/quote]

What “prediction” are you referring to? I’m well aware that the Saudis dread the rise of a Shia superstate spanning Iran and Iraq – thanks to the geniuses in the Whitehouse.

67

Please correct me if I am wrong, but did you not suggest earlier that the Persian Gulf states among others would not view Iran’s nuclear program as a threat? Then, why are they now actively engaged in developing nuclear programs to counter it?

Iran was developing nuclear weapons since 1979 (earlier under the Shah as well) so where would this “threat” originate with Bush? and do you think that it is a real threat? And if so, what do you think that we should do about it? We have allowed the Europeans over three years to “negotiate” with Iran. How’s that working out? and should we continue relying on them for their “efforts?”

68

America should secretly fund militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme. These militia groups could use terrorist methods to hit against the government and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Surely this is the way forward?

69

Please correct me if I am wrong, but did you not suggest earlier that the Persian Gulf states among others would not view Iran’s nuclear program as a threat? Then, why are they now actively engaged in developing nuclear programs to counter it?

Iran was developing nuclear weapons since 1979 (earlier under the Shah as well) so where would this “threat” originate with Bush? and do you think that it is a real threat? And if so, what do you think that we should do about it? We have allowed the Europeans over three years to “negotiate” with Iran. How’s that working out? and should we continue relying on them for their “efforts?”[/quote]

Your imaginary friend, the Straw Man, most likely told you that. My view is that the Middle East is such a volatile and extremism-ridden place that it should be a nuclear weapons free zone for the foreseeable future.

If that policy is pursued in an even-handed way using the same recently devised economic sanctions that have been so successful in getting North Korea to back down it has a chance of success. It’s irrational to attempt to enforce such a policy in a one-sided way though using military force ‘justified’ by unfounded accusations. Short of long-term invasion and occupation, any country in the Middle East which really wants nuclear weapons will get them. Relying on a draconian policy of periodic unprovoked massive bombing and denial of even the technology necessary for a civilian nuclear energy program is pure madness – as time will tell.

70

What do you mean by even-handed? Israel again? again? Why is it that Israel’s possession of nuclear weapons for the past 30 plus years has not spurred anyone else in the region to develop a similar program but those of Iran are? I know the Jews or Israelis must be to blame some how but can you tell me exactly in what way so we can be on the same page regarding their evil influence.

71

Fred…if only the last Jews can be driven/persuaded to move to Israel from Europe* to a nuclear-free Middle East, I’m certain that a final solution to the regions/worlds problems can be found. Isn’t that simple?

*I forgot…we’ll also have to do something about those Jewish neo-cons pulling the strings in the US.

72

Yes???

Ach. Mein Gott. How could I have been such a dumbkopf!!! I hope I have not given the Plan away. Please do not tell the Fuhrer. He would be so angry with my clumsy incompetence. We must not give the Game away…

And their evil Minions. After all, Iran’s leadership is “peace-loving” and it is up to us to understand its legitimate grievances. After all, the Jews are only getting what they deserve… for occupying Palestine… Thank God for that or we would have to come up with an Alternative Excuse… Rationale… Plan… Solution… Ah yes, the Solution… This time it must be Final… Once it is there will be 1,000 years of peace in the Middle East… When Purity is restored to the Volk. Sorry to the Caliphate…

73

Is there any doubt Cheney has a commitment to aggressiveness?

Let’s not kid others or ourselves. Caught in lie after lie without judicial punishment, can anyone doubt the Cheney/Bush/PNAC administration’s intentions? (maybe warranting a forum of it’s own?)

Cheney’s commitment was clear when it was profitable to speak his mind.

[quote]Dick Cheney’s speech at the Institute of Petroleum Autumn lunch, 1999:

"By some estimates there will be an average of two per cent annual growth in global oil demand over the years ahead along with conservatively a three per cent natural decline in production from existing reserves. That means by 2010 we will need on the order of an additional fifty million barrels a day. So where is the oil going to come from?

Governments and the national oil companies are obviously controlling about ninety per cent of the assets. Oil remains fundamentally a government business. While many regions of the world offer great oil opportunities, the Middle East with two thirds of the world’s oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies, even though companies are anxious for greater access there, progress continues to be slow.
…
In the last century and up to World War Two coal was king and looks to have a lock as the primary source of energy. It was dethroned by oil, mostly due to transportation fuels, but also because oil was less polluting and easier to handle. Coal is still with us today, but oil is clearly dominant. In the new century, will the oil age give way to another source of energy or to new technologies? Some predict natural gas will erode oil’s performance, others say that technology, fuel cells, telecommuting on the internet or some other breakthrough will lessen our dependence on hydrocarbons.

Well, the end of the oil era is not here yet, but changes are afoot and the industry must be ready to adapt to the new century and to the transformations that lie ahead. It will mean showing more speed and agility. As I have outlined today, there are new areas to co-operate in, new risk, new competition, new roles, new integration and a new convergence with power. This will be a challenging environment as we cross the threshold into the new millennium.

(emphasis added)[/quote]
If I wanted to be in the club of, or were paid by chickenhawks I would see fit to find reasons to justify initiating and waging a third war of aggression. Let’s not forget the Nazis were convicted not for genocide, but rather the very same subject of this forum.

Operation Iraqi Liberation and Operation Iran Liberation are undeniably deft strategies for America’s short-term hegomony ensuring oil profits, but the physical, moral and historical injuries caused by the Chickenhawk Headquarters are shameless.

U.S. developing contingency plan to bomb Iran: report (Reuters, Sun Feb 25, 2007)

========================================
“The good Lord didn’t see fit to put oil and gas only
where there are democratic regimes friendly to the
United States” - Richard Cheney

“Defending Liberty in a Global Economy”, speech at the
CATO Institute, June 23, 1998
(Originally at www cato.org/speeches/spdc062398.html)
ABOUT HALLIBURTON > Cheney/Halliburton Chronology
(http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/chronology.html)

More at http://www.halliburtonwatch.org

74

Good. I hope you are right. It is time for Iran to have a come to Jesus meeting. (deliberate)

Bombs away… Even if they do benefit Israel…

75

So the “plan” continues to be “Demagoguery In, Extremism Out.”

Carry on. It’s going to be interesting.

76

Trace all of this evil back to the “high-minded” Carter who believed in “human rights” above all else or so he said. Unfortunately, hundreds of millions suffered even more under his “enlightened” tenure. Trace most of the violence and extremism that have mushroomed in the Middle East to the takeover of Iran, formerly an anchor of American-led stability, with the mullahs. Trace the monies that they have thrown at extremist, fascist, violent “revolution” everywhere. Lebanon was a civil war in its own right but look at what happened when the mullahs started throwing money to Hezbollah… Time to eradicate Carter’s legacy from the region once and for all. It will not be easy. It will not be pretty. But it’s about G-damned time it was done. Amen. Hallelujah.

77

While I’m no Carter fan, doesn’t history actually “trace” back to Dwight Eisenhower sending the CIA into Iran and overthrowing the democratically elected Iranian government at the behest of British Petroleum?

More at National Security Archive > The Secret CIA History of the Iran Coup, 1953

Wiki on Operation Ajax [quote]After the election of General Dwight Eisenhower to President, the British successfully crafted a Communist scare to convince the American government to join them in overthrowing the democratically chosen Prime Minister, Mohammed Mossadeq, and re-establish British control of Iranian oil profits.
…
Operation Ajax was the first time the Central Intelligence Agency was involved in a plot to overthrow a democratically-elected government. The success of this operation, and its relatively low cost, encouraged the CIA to successfully carry out a similar operation in Guatemala a year later.[/quote]
50 Years After the CIA’s First Overthrow of a Democratically Elected Foreign Government We Take a Look at the 1953 US Backed Coup in Iran (Monday, August 25th, 2003)[quote]The U.S. involvement in the fall of Mossadegh was not publicly acknowledged until three years ago. In a New York Times article in March 2000, then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright admitted that “the coup was clearly a setback for Iran’s political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs.”[/quote]
The “Demonization” of Muslims and the Battle for Oil [quote]Throughout history, “wars of religion” have served to obscure the economic and strategic interests behind the conquest and invasion of foreign lands. “Wars of religion” were invariably fought with a view to securing control over trading routes and natural resources.
…
War builds a humanitarian agenda. Throughout history, vilification of the enemy has been applied time and again. The Crusades consisted in demonizing the Turks as infidels and heretics, with a view to justifying military action.

Demonization serves geopolitical and economic objectives. Likewise, the campaign against “Islamic terrorism” (which is supported covertly by US intelligence) supports the conquest of oil wealth. The term “Islamo-fascism,” serves to degrade the policies, institutions, values and social fabric of Muslim countries, while also upholding the tenets of “Western democracy” and the “free market” as the only alternative for these countries.

The US led war in the broader Middle East Central Asian region consists in gaining control over more than sixty percent of the world’s reserves of oil and natural gas. The Anglo-American oil giants also seek to gain control over oil and gas pipeline routes out of the region. (See table and maps below).
…
The ultimate objective, combining military action, covert intelligence operations and war propaganda, is to break down the national fabric and transform sovereign countries into open economic territories, where natural resources can be plundered and confiscated under “free market” supervision. This control also extends to strategic oil and gas pipeline corridors (e.g. Afghanistan).

Demonization is a PSYOP, used to sway public opinion and build a consensus in favor of war. Psychological warfare is directly sponsored by the Pentagon and the US intelligence apparatus. It is not limited to assassinating or executing the rulers of Muslim countries, it extends to entire populations. [/quote]

======================================
Cheney’s Halliburton Stock Rose Over 3000 Percent in 2004

78

Fred, let me get this straight. You seem to be saying that Jimmy Carter is the failure of the century because he didn’t keep Iran from becoming a Shiite theocracy while George Bush is the best thing that’s happened to the Middle East in modern times because he facilitated the transformation of Iraq into a Shiite theocracy, thereby multiplying the influence of Iran’s mullahs in the region.

Would that be a correct reading of your position?

79

[quote]Throughout history, “wars of religion” have served to obscure the economic and strategic interests behind the conquest and invasion of foreign lands. “Wars of religion” were invariably fought with a view to securing control over trading routes and natural resources.
…
War builds a humanitarian agenda. Throughout history, vilification of the enemy has been applied time and again. The Crusades consisted in demonizing the Turks as infidels and heretics, with a view to justifying military action.

Demonization serves geopolitical and economic objectives. Likewise, the campaign against “Islamic terrorism” (which is supported covertly by US intelligence) supports the conquest of oil wealth. The term “Islamo-fascism,” serves to degrade the policies, institutions, values and social fabric of Muslim countries, while also upholding the tenets of “Western democracy” and the “free market” as the only alternative for these countries.

The US led war in the broader Middle East Central Asian region consists in gaining control over more than sixty percent of the world’s reserves of oil and natural gas. The Anglo-American oil giants also seek to gain control over oil and gas pipeline routes out of the region. (See table and maps below).
…
The ultimate objective, combining military action, covert intelligence operations and war propaganda, is to break down the national fabric and transform sovereign countries into open economic territories, where natural resources can be plundered and confiscated under “free market” supervision. This control also extends to strategic oil and gas pipeline corridors (e.g. Afghanistan).

Demonization is a PSYOP, used to sway public opinion and build a consensus in favor of war. Psychological warfare is directly sponsored by the Pentagon and the US intelligence apparatus. It is not limited to assassinating or executing the rulers of Muslim countries, it extends to entire populations. [/quote]

Do we really have to go through this pseudo-intellectual bullshit again?

80

Almost there. Spook…

Not exactly. With the power and funding from Iran gone, what would exactly be the position of the Shias in Iraq? More malleable? Less confrontational? Less Fascist? Maybe? I am saying as I have said all along that if we are going to finish off Islamofascism, we have to go all the way. Afghanistan and Iraq were steps. Syria and Iran would be final steps. It is that simple. I do not see why people are unable to comprehend that we are in a regional war and that Iran is our biggest enemy.

Given that the Shah was a highly enlightened leader who brought great advances to his country, I would say the US was very wise to participate in the British-led coup against Mossadegh. After all, would anyone suggest that Mossadegh was overthrown in some sort of vacuum? what were the reasons why the US and Britain moved against him? Just for oil? I don’t think so. Someone might want to read up on their history a bit. Seems that the Soviets were quite expansionist at the time and we were at the height of the Cold War. The Soviets had treated Iran as within their zone of influence. This was not something that the US or Britain would have wanted to allow to continue. Sorry, yes, Iran was a pawn in the Great Game of blah blah blah. And in hindsight, we all recognize that we were wrong wrong wrong. But did Iran benefit? I think so.