The EU death watch thread

It seemed like a good idea at the time, but it’s coming apart. When something goes to pieces, we can learn a lot by watching the process. Like how wanting something to succeed very, very badly just isn’t enough.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … state.html

What’s Captain Euro up to these days?

Ah the telegraph bastion of all things anti-EU. Get bored of Fox?

I never get bored of being out of the mainstream and ahead of the curve.

Seen the latest from Greece? If Greece bails on the EU, that may be good news for the EU or bad news for the EU, depending on whether the bureaucrats take the right lessons from it.

The union – such as it is – is less weak without its weaker members, but the process of amputating the diseased limbs may be rather messy, and will do its own damage.

Aren’t you confusing the EU with the eurozone?

It’s all the same tangle. Find a way to tease them apart and we’ll have something to talk about.

It’s all the same tangle. Find a way to tease them apart and we’ll have something to talk about.[/quote]

Sigh. I know this is a waste of time, but

[quote]he euro (sign: €; code: EUR) is the official currency of the eurozone, which consists of 19 of the 28 member states of the European Union: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain.[3][4] The currency is also officially used by the institutions of the European Union and four other European countries, as well as unilaterally by two others, and is consequently used daily by some 334 million Europeans as of 2013.[5] Outside of Europe, a number of overseas territories of EU members also use the euro as their currency.

Additionally, 210 million people worldwide as of 2013—including 182 million people in Africa—use currencies pegged to the euro. [/quote] Wiki

EU non-euro states:
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Reublic, Denmark, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Sweden, UK.

There, that wasn’t so hard.

Why do Republicans continue to take such a great interest in the dismantling of Europe?

Are they threatened by a bloc that rivals the USA, culturally and economically? Are they simply against big government per se (and yes, there the Europeans do need some help)? Or are they annoyed that the euro seems to have weathered things better than the dollar did for quite some time.

I think they’re actually looking to see how diseased states like Michigan can be cut out of the Union. Or maybe just a big collective case of trans-Atlantic schadenfreude. Let them all eat cake!

It’s all the same tangle. Find a way to tease them apart and we’ll have something to talk about.[/quote]

Sigh. I know this is a waste of time, but
[/quote]

…you’ve completely missed the point.

[quote=“urodacus”]Why do Republicans continue to take such a great interest in the dismantling of Europe?
[/quote]

It’s envy. Nothing but envy. What other possible explanation could there be?

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“urodacus”]Why do Republicans continue to take such a great interest in the dismantling of Europe?
[/quote]

It’s envy. Nothing but envy. What other possible explanation could there be?[/quote]

Stupidity.

By the way, the UK is in the EU but not in the Eurozone, and it is not that hard to understand.

UK are enjoying the benefits of Europe (free market) without taking much responsibilities.

They play smart while Germany and France are getting fu**

The UK is in an interesting position, courted by both power blocks, we sit in the middle and see which way the wind blows. We stayed out of the Euro from the beginning. Everyone called us insular snobs. Now look.

[quote=“Markova”]UK are enjoying the benefits of Europe (free market) without taking much responsibilities.

They play smart while Germany and France are getting fu**[/quote]

So what’s this UKIP thingy all about?

UKIP is Nigel Farage and friends. He’s been sticking it to the EU parliament for over ten years. Calling them out on their BS in spectacular style. He was a virtual pariah within Brussells but is becoming increasingly popular at home. Threatens to dent the two major parties in the next election despite the best smearing efforts of the controlled press.

UKIP is Nigel Farage and friends. He’s been sticking it to the EU parliament for over ten years. Calling them out on their BS in spectacular style. He was a virtual pariah within Brussells but is becoming increasingly popular at home. Threatens to dent the two major parties in the next election despite the best smearing efforts of the controlled press.


[/quote]

lol

Thats what I call freedom of speech!

It’s all the same tangle. Find a way to tease them apart and we’ll have something to talk about.[/quote]

Sigh. I know this is a waste of time, but
[/quote]

…you’ve completely missed the point.[/quote]

Well, it wouldn’t be the first time :slight_smile:

But , yes, you are right- up to a point. The members of the EU are fairly entangled; though the euro members are stuck worse.
I’m not that enamored of the existing arrangement, though indeed theoretically it’s not bad- and Greece should never have been admitted in the first place.

The problem is, as one of those free-market-type Americans pointed out in the 90s, that the members tried to forge a currency union without the deeper political union necessary to make it achievable- sort of an Articles of Confederation, instead of a US Constitution. When the economy of Florida tanked thanks to the collapse of the housing market, there were enough stabilizers and income transfers from the rest of the country to alleviate the situation-nobody grumbled about bailing out those feckless Sunshiners. ( In America, such bitching is directed at minorities, who are geographically spread out.)

This same free-enterprise loving economist pointed out that the main problem with European economies was not a lack of monetary integration, but rather the oppressive web of regulations and government interference.

What was his name? Krugstein, Krugdorf…something like that.

telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ … -live.html

The latest election in Greece is best seen as a huge temper tantrum by a childish society. Germany is playing the part of the stern parent who won’t give in. But there are other members of this happy little family.

The parent-child relationship is all about power imbalance and dependency. That’s why growing up is so important. If a child does not become a fuly functioning adult, someone has failed.

Maybe the real problem was that they never clearly identified the nature of the relationship from the beginning.

[quote=“rowland”]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11422438/Greece-faces-off-with-creditors-live.html

The latest election in Greece is best seen as a huge temper tantrum by a childish society. Germany is playing the part of the stern parent who won’t give in. But there are other members of this happy little family.

Maybe the real problem was that they never clearly identified the nature of the relationship from the beginning.[/quote]

The admission of Greece to the EU was a political act- Greece, the foundation of Western civilisation, the border of Christendom, an outpost of the West with the Warsaw Pact to the north, plus it had not long emerged from a military dictatorship, so it was also a gesture to Spain and Portugal to stay the course and reap the reward. Same for the euro; everyone was pushing for maximum expansion. It never met the conditions for membership of either the EU or the eurozone, and was in constant violation, for which it received at most a stern talking-to.

What basically emerged post-junta was a tacit agreement between Left (PASOK) and Right (New Democracy) that both sides would ignore the other’s corruption. Money was poured into social welfare plans and job creation with lax controls to keep the left satisfied; meanwhile tax evasion and corruption in contracts by the wealthier was everywhere to the satisfaction of the right. This happy situation was paid for by loans from European banks, supported by the other EU countries.

And therein, as Paul Harvey would say, is the rest of the story. A lot of the money that flowed into Greece flowed right back out again; some to contracts with companies from other EU countries; some to pay for exports; a lot into hidden bank accounts in Switzerland and Luxembourg. But nobody was worried- the companies- some of Europe’s biggest- were happy to get the contracts, even if it involved a cut off the top for their Greek partners and politicians, and the politicians in the rest of Europe were happy for the jobs created. The banks didn’t worry , because , hey, Greece was a member of the EU and eurozone- if the worst came, the rest of Europe would bail them out, so why worry about little things like the viability of loans, when there were bonuses and stock options to be had? Moral hazard, anyone?

How many of those currently condemning the feckless Greeks were happy to go along for the ride?- most of them, at a good guess.

Sentimentalism and wishful thinking.

Ancient Athens played a crucial part in the devlopment of the West, but history has long since moved on. The most important thing to note about the Parthenon is that it lies in ruins. That’s symbolic.

I once went to one of the yuppier parts of Massachusetts to see where the American Revolution started. There’s not much to see but a few plaques beside stone walls. Minuteman Park doesn’t even qualify as a tourist trap.

There’s learning from the past, and there’s living in the past. I’ve never seen anyone do both of these things. They seem to be mutually exclusive somehow.

As for the Euro and the EU… there’s planning for the future, and there’s living in a fantasy future. George Jetson is dead. Now we have to get rid of Mustapha Mond.

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“rowland”][quote=“urodacus”]Why do Republicans continue to take such a great interest in the dismantling of Europe?
[/quote]

It’s envy. Nothing but envy. What other possible explanation could there be?[/quote]

Stupidity.

By the way, the UK is in the EU but not in the Eurozone, and it is not that hard to understand.[/quote]

And they gladly accept Euros as payment in the UK … :smiley: ironic!