The EU won the Olympic Games

[quote]Dangermouse wrote:
Europe? Shove it up your Are there any others who feel the same way?

Not at all!

I am a European and a British citizen. European first, though!

The EU needs work, undoubtedly. But I still believe in the ideal of an integrated Europe![/quote]

It bothers me how anyone can ditch their national identity an let themselves be recognised first and foremost as someone living under an institution which is, for want of a better word, fake.

Why would you want to give up your identity to an organisation which is not democratic? The leaders of the EU are all un-elected. How can you see yourself first and foremost as an EU citizen, when the EU is such a long way off in becoming anything remotely efficient politically?

Aside from the above, the EU is riddled with corruptness with new scandals coming out weekly. Member countries are fighting over policies and the policies in effect do not work or are completely ignored. Bureaucrats revel in red tape and paper work and use money assigned for lawmaking, policies and the running of the EU to decorate offices. Why does it cost 4.8 million Euros to decorate an office??
Why does it cost 2.8 million Euros to hold a meeting for 20 people over two days?

And then you have a fake currency. A currency which needs to be propped up every now and then because it is floundering severely.

And then there is the introduction of 10 new eastern european countries, most of which are still fighting politically amongst themselves and have not long emerged out of civil war.

If you ask me, it needs alot of work.

For once Dangermouse:

I must agree with you. I assure you however that national government like the US are equally corrupt. That said, I for one want to see less federal government control or involvement in my life and more power reverted to the States. Why Europeans would want to put decisions about their lives farther and farther away is beyond me. I think it would be a great mistake. If the EU can simplify taxes, treaties, laws, trade, etc. then so much the better. If it is all about dictating curvature of bananas then I think it will be a force for stifling creativity and entrepreneurship.

You agree? Oh no.

Wait…er…I think Europe and the European Community is an excellent idea and should be embraced by all. All bannanas should be tested with a spirit level before sale therefore creating unnecessary jobs for the spirit level weilding unemployed. Then the EU can gloat at how unemployment has fallen.

Then we can have strawberry painters, because unaturally pink strawberries are better for you than the naturally red ones. Then the EU can gloat about how many more job vacancies have opened due to the need for strawberries to be painted pink.

And dont forget how friends and family of corrupt government officials can have jobs making up silly laws because the creation of silly laws needs a big, oversized silly laws department.

And don’t forget jobs for red tape manufacturers. Red tape factories in Europe have increased tenfold due to the EU’s demand for red tape. Employment in the manufacture of red tape has risen to astronomical heights as the desire for red tape in all European nations has sky rocketed.

And finally there is a need for an anti corruption department. With such a large, wobbly organisation that is falling apart, corruption is rife. But as socialist ideals are all about people following the norm rather than the exception and with the recognition that intergration is of paramount importance, perhaps the anti corruption department can be corrupt so it spends more time investigating itself than any other part of the EU.

Wow, I’ve just read through my more than sarcastic reply and I have realised that I am actually agreeing with you, Fred.

Maybe this is the start of a wonderful new frendship.

Oh rats! I’ve just remembered that I am yet to reply to you about the “US out of Germany” thread. Don’t worry, I havn’t forgotten.
Be warned, it will come back to haunt you. When I have more time on my hands… :smiley:

[quote=“Dangermouse”][quote]Dangermouse wrote:
Europe? Shove it up your Are there any others who feel the same way?

Not at all!

I am a European and a British citizen. European first, though!

The EU needs work, undoubtedly. But I still believe in the ideal of an integrated Europe![/quote]

It bothers me how anyone can ditch their national identity an let themselves be recognised first and foremost as someone living under an institution which is, for want of a better word, fake.

Why would you want to give up your identity to an organisation which is not democratic? The leaders of the EU are all un-elected. How can you see yourself first and foremost as an EU citizen, when the EU is such a long way off in becoming anything remotely efficient politically?

If you ask me, it needs alot of work.[/quote]

For me at any rate, it

Don’t worry, Kategalen, I respect your opinions.

I’m English and England is older than the UK. The same as Scotland and Wales are older than the UK. They are all individual countries.

But even now, without full integration into Europe, Europe dictates that I am not allowed to have stained glass windows in my house because they contain lead.
Why not? Because lead is poisonous. But people have been using satined glass for over a thousand years.
Who are they to dictate to the people of the UK whether they can have stained glass windows on their own house?

European law states that I we can not use the imperial measurement standards such as feet, inches, pounds and ounces but instead must use the metric system. Why? If I am a shopkeeper and use the metric system, I can be arrested and fined under European law. True democracy at its best.

How about all the laws restricting business? Working time directives, over-the -top health and safety rules and stupid taxation systems to name but a few?

We have to do things the restrictive, European way while we give up our traditions and ways of life for the good of a big white elephant.

Madness.

I am afraid that I have to agree. The EU is the triumph of lazy mindless bureaucrats who will make doing business and even day to day living a series of odysseys through paperwork and red tape. Europeans should be looking at setting overall policy and then devolving as many decisions as possible not to national capitals but to regional and district capitals as much as possible. I wish the same thing were happening in the US but it does not look like that is going to happen either.

Why should education and welfare policies be set in national capitals when conditions vary so much from place to place. This should at the minimum be handled by state governments even better by county governments.

Fred

There is a word in Eurospeak for what you are describing. It is ‘subsidiarity’ - the idea that decisions should be taken in the closest appropriate political unit to the individual citizen. The principle has been written into the recent treaties and constitutional proposals for the EU.

The real enemies of this approach are the governments of the member states who enjoy wide direct legislative powers when they act as the European Council - powers far wider than they enjoy for domestic legislation.

There are different types of European legislation. There are regulations which are a type of ‘federal’ legislation. But most legislation takes the form of directives where the EU sets the aims and standards and it is up to the member states to frame the actual laws to fit local conditions. Is that what you were recommending? Because that’s pretty much how it works now.

Dangermouse

The European Union is not a conspiracy against the United Kingdom or British people(s).

You gave four examples: lead in stained glass windows, imperial measures, health and safety legislation and taxation.

As for lead in windows, it’s a health issue. The law may be silly but if it’s silly, it’s silly because it’s a disproportionate response not because it comes from Europe. (I’m not sure that your average Brit has been enjoying stained glass windows at home for thousands of years though! :wink: )

Imperial measures - well things change. And people adapt. I (only just) remember the ‘old money’ before decimalisation. (Pounds, shillings and pence). People didn’t like that and that was before the UK joined the EU. I’m also of an age to find metric easier to deal with. Kilos make more sense to me than pounds do. I wouldn’t know an ounce if it bit me on the nose. Saying that metric must be used is a consumer protection measure to ensure ease of price comparison. It’s not illegal anyway to use both, but you must sell in standard sizes and show the metric. (As Vannyell might say, it’s not a great infringement of human rights! :smiley: )

I tend to believe that health and safety legislation is per se a ‘good thing’. I don’t care where it comes from. I know it’s incovenient sometimes but I would hate to go back to the days of widespread occupational diseases. I wish that employers in Taiwan had a broader ‘duty of care’ for their employees than they do. Economically speaking, low health and safety standards acts a ‘hidden subsidy’ for capital. Sensible health and safety legislation encourages capital to use labour efficiently, in my view, and in the longer run everybody’s happier. In addition, in a single market you have to have broadly similar labour standards to ensure fair competition.

Maybe there is another ideological difference at work here too. I tend to agree with Fred’s friend, that bold conservative Jacques Chirac, on this point: We want to have a market economy, but not a market society! :uhhuh:

Taxes - The central budget of the EU institutions receives a tiny proportion of the total tax revenues in the EU area. Of course you can point to silly overspends at a European level, or to policies that should be changed. But these things don’t just happen at EU level. How much over budget was the new Scottish parliament building? Started at GBP40m and ended up at GBP431m! And don’t you remember the debacle about the Lord Chancellor’s wallpaper? :wink:

A single market requires single external tariffs and a certain degree of tax harmonisation - no way around it.

[quote=“kategelan”]

For me at any rate, it

Keep prostrating yourself. That is what you will be doing for the far forseeable future when your life is controlled and every aspect of the economy and society are dictated by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels. You have been warned. We told you so.

I didn’t say it was, but I speak of what I know. I do know that is a conspiracy against democracy. (Also, havn’t we got one of the biggest gold reserves in the world? Just imagine if the EU got their hands on that - ooh - we have already given away some of it).

Oh…it’s a health issue. Right. Now I understand. So my county council came round to my house to ensure I was complying with EU safety regulations and told me to remove my stained glass windows because of a directive from Europe.
However, my roof is lined with lead and the pipes into my kitchen sink ar lead lined, affecting the water (which I have changed). Yet a lead roof is fine and nothing was said about my kitchen pipes.
Ban Pencils. They contain lead.
Safety? No, bureaucracy and silly laws. Price for not complying: 2000 pounds in fines.
I have stained glass windows, so do my neighbours, so do many other people. Stained glass has been around for over a thousand years.
I’m keeping my stained glass windows.

Yes they did like it because everyone moaned when decimalisation came into use. Who told you they didn’t like it?
(And look at the standard of peoples mathematics today :laughing: )

Imperial: 12’s. 12/24 hours, 5 12’s = 60 minutes. 12 months to a year.
Metric: 10…fingers. Imperial still makes more sence. Perhaps we should have metric time?

I would argue that being arrested and fined 3000 pounds for selling items as pounds and ounces whereas a criminal who steals my car gets a 120 pound fine and 5 hours “community service” is a violation of human rights.
Wouldn’t you?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hohohohohohohoho hehehehehehehehe :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Sorry Well, yes, health and safety is needed. But theres needing it and overdoing it. I don’t need a 7 hour course on how to lift a box correctly. (yes, I have had to attend one and my intelligence was insulted).
Nor do I need lessons on how to use a steplader. Nor do I need to pay professional people to come in to my office to clean doorframes and archichives because they exceed the maximum safe height of 190cm. But the EU tells me this is dangerous, like crocodile wrestling or using a hairdryer in the bath.

And forming govenment departments which require you to attend a training day held by government sponsored companies and sub departments on how to lift a box is not a “hidden subsidy?” Bear in mind that all these courses and training days, held bi-annually have to be paid for by the companies recieving the training. Failiure to comply = hefty fine.
Another EU directive.

Thats the Scottish parliament/assembly milking all they can from London for you. As for wallpaper, what do expect from a Labour government?

I await your reply with anticipation.

[color=red]Butcher Boy Wrote:[/color]

Where’s your proof Butcher Boy? It’s no good just doing the odd drive-by posting. Come up with some weight to back up your argument, or you may be labelled as you have labelled others before you.

Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but I’m angry.

I didn’t say it was, but I speak of what I know. I do know that is a conspiracy against democracy. (Also, havn’t we got one of the biggest gold reserves in the world? Just imagine if the EU got their hands on that - ooh - we have already given away some of it).

But while we are on the subject, lets see how the EU forced their own laws regarding Frances’ failiure to lift it’s ban on British Beef after the BSE crisis. Not only did they not lift their own ban, they prevented other countries receiving imports of British beef by not allowing British trucks to pass through France. Did the EU enforce the law and fine France for disobeying? No.
(Ironic that BSE is widely thought to have originated from France due to their cattle feed composition and farming techniques)

OK. now lets have a look at fishing. France (again) over-fished it’s own quotas for its territorial waters and started to use British territorial waters to fish. This was met with objection from Britain and Frances responce was to block British ports with their fishing boats. Apart from the disruption to fishing, commercial shipping traffic was badly affected costing Britain millions. The UK turned to the EU to remove france, but the EU, unwilling to enforce its own laws, let France do as it pleased.
In the end, warships had to be deployed to get rid of the French. The EU then allowed the French to fish in British waters therefore putting thousands of british fishing families and villages into poverty.

And then there is the lamb problem. British export of lamb to EU countries was hurting Frances lamd exports so what did France do? Block its ports so no exports could get through. Not only did they block ports, causing widespread disruption on both sides of the channel, but they burned British trucks with live lambs still inside. How nice.
What did the EU do? Nothing.

But Dangermouse, Britain was acting unilaterally. France clearly was in the right for building a proper coalition with the EU and getting UN approval. France didn’t have any BSEMD’s, so you cannot possibly justify your actions.

Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died! Blair lied, sheeple died!

[quote=“Juba”]I have a feeling that a European Union olympic team would be less than the sum of its parts.

p.s. Coffee, I liked your ad.[/quote]

Scams, Shams and Kofi Annan

The Unabashed Arrogance of Kofi Anann

Why won’t the U.N. answer questions about its Iraq scandal?

What the hell are you talking about? I’m talking about when inspectors came to the UK and cleared the UK of BSE. The EU lifted its ban, but France didn’t.

What did the UK do wrong?

Answers on a postcard.

What the hell are you talking about? I’m talking about when inspectors came to the UK and cleared the UK of BSE. The EU lifted its ban, but France didn’t.

What did the UK do wrong?

Answers on a postcard.[/quote]
Oh, piffle. The BSE inspectors didn’t know where to look. You Britons buried it in the chalk cliffs of Dover, you led the inspectors around by their noses, you showed them what they wanted to see. No doubt the inspectors all got bought off in the “beef for oil” scandal. Britain is a quagmire, a swamp, a morass, a bog. A peat bog. Yes, I like that.

But the USDA will straighten you out. We will do the job properly, and not leave until we are satisfied that you are no longer a threat to the world food supply.

Ah… but you are forgetting. I said [quote]Answers on a postcard.[/quote]

As you have replied by internet, your reply is null and void. However, I will humour you just this once and just this once only.

Insider papers leaked by M16 and GCHQ in Cheltenham showed that intelligence suggested that the US consumption of Beef was at an all time high and at dangerous levels. Therefore, the UK needed to disrupt the world Beef economy.

A large scale pretend disease was introduced in Beef producing England and the whole world was put on COW (Central Ox Warning) alert.
An interim organisation was set up to deal with the crises and countries “in the know” operated under the Peacetime Agricutral Sales Transfer Under Recognised Economies (PASTURE).
Under the PASTURE organisation, sales of Beef went on as normal.

However, in the US worries about infected Beef were abound. Sales of Beef dropped and consumption reached an all time low.
Luckily, this happened just in time as Americans were getting heavier and heavier.
Statistics showed that if Americans had consumed Beef at the same rate as they had been before the pretend Beef crises for one more week, then the world would have been unable to hold it’s orbit around the sun due to the immense weight of Americans and we would now be on a collision course with Jupiter.* After averting the crises, the UK implemented a Fat American Restoration Measure (FARM) to aid Americans become thinner so they could fit in their Hummers, F16’s and Tanks and invade Iraq.

Luckily with the COW and the use of PASTURE we were able to implement a FARM.

As the UK has averted worldwide disaster, I feel it most appropriate that we be compensated with all your gold reserves. Also, of all the technology we have given you which you now sell and call your own we now require royalties.
Scotland also requires royalties for the invention of the telephone.

So there :raspberry: Squidlyburger.

*We were going to distribute overweight Americans evenly around the world so the Earth would not topple off it’s axis, but we couldn’t get countries to accept any due to their loud mouths, ignorant views and their belief that wearing beige shorts, trainers with white socks, pulled up as far as their knees and multicolour baseball caps is fashionable.

As you have replied by internet, your reply is null and void. However, I will humour you just this once and just this once only.

Insider papers leaked by M16 and GCHQ in Cheltenham showed that intelligence suggested that the US consumption of Beef was at an all time high and at dangerous levels. Therefore, the UK needed to disrupt the world Beef economy.

A large scale pretend disease was introduced in Beef producing England and the whole world was put on COW (Central Ox Warning) alert.
An interim organisation was set up to deal with the crises and countries “in the know” operated under the Peacetime Agricutral Sales Transfer Under Recognised Economies (PASTURE).
Under the PASTURE organisation, sales of Beef went on as normal.

However, in the US worries about infected Beef were abound. Sales of Beef dropped and consumption reached an all time low.
Luckily, this happened just in time as Americans were getting heavier and heavier.
Statistics showed that if Americans had consumed Beef at the same rate as they had been before the pretend Beef crises for one more week, then the world would have been unable to hold it’s orbit around the sun due to the immense weight of Americans and we would now be on a collision course with Jupiter.*[/quote]
The fools. The mad, mad fools.

As Atkins proved, the eating of a high-protein/high-fat diet reduces weight. By reducing America’s beef supply, you INCREASED the average American’s weight, thereby endangering the entire planet.

Clearly Britain is suitable only for being a colony of a more advanced, more intelligent, and more civilized society. I suggest France, since we Americans are too busy with more important things.