Originally posted by ironlady:
quote[quote]Even in the States, an oral promise is only a promise, not a contract.[/quote]To the best of my knowledge, this is incorrect. In the United States an oral promise is indeed a legally binding contract, though one that can be more difficult to establish in a court of law. But I agree with the rest of your post.
Well in our case it was even ruder - he just stopped talking to my wife - turned off his hand phones - yes - (more than one - maybe he just got new accounts to be available to who he wanted to hear) - did not reply to phone messages (even though the company still seemed to be operating) - or email - I guess his company (not small) is in strife.
But it could have been polite to say âI have a problem, sorryâ.
She had even resigned her current job - fortunately that could be undone, without too much loss of face.
We lie to get jobs. They lie about whether we have one.
Both as bad as one another!
I know for a fact there are at least some circumstances in teh States where an oral promise is nothing more than a promise â we were interested in buying a particular house, and concluded an oral agreement with the sellers (giving them their asking price). This was at 9 p.m. one night. We were to come back the next day when they âwould have the papers readyâ. The next day I got a phone call from the lady in question saying that they had sold the house to someone else who had paid more. I inquired as to whether this oral promise was enforceable â even went to the agency that was assisting this couple in selling the house to object to this breach of trust â but no go. In Virginia, at least, better get it in writing.
At least I donât think there was any âfaceâ involved in THAT oneâŚ
Terry
quote:Yes, I should have noted that there are some exceptions. Unfortunately for you, the sale of real estate is one of those.
Originally posted by ironlady: I know for a fact there are at least some circumstances in the States where an oral promise is nothing more than a promise -- we were interested in buying a particular house, and concluded an oral agreement with the sellers.
In general, however, oral contracts are legal and enforceable in the United States. Hereâs but one of many Web pages on this:
http://smallbiz.biz.findlaw.com/book/lg_contracts/articles/20.dâŚhtml
But itâs always best to get it in writing.
quote:
Originally posted by coleswarren: We lie to get jobs. They lie about whether we have one.
Really? Please elaborate.
quote[quote] In Taiwan, an oral promise is something that sounds nice, kind of up there with "gosh, your Chinese is really good" and that kind of stuff [/quote]I want to know why Taiwanese employers promise at all if theyâre the slightest bit unsure.
I believe it would be better to say âWeâll let you knowâ instead of âWeâll sign a contract next weekâ. The first response, in my opinion, saves face and leaves things open, while the second implicates both parties and results in bad feelings and loss of face.
Ironlady, your friend doesnât owe this company any more than they offered in return.
Hi Shaz,
Oh, I agree. After that happened, I really didnât feel much like continuing with them either, especially since at the time I had been in another fairly lucrative setup and had left that based on their assurance (AND contract) that the project was going to go. But I figured I had to lighten up a bit â stuff happens and I really donât think it was just a gigantic plot on their part (at least vis a vis me) to get me to work in some other division of their company. Plus at the moment I was in some financial straits and needed to continue earning some good money, so I didnât really feel free to head out even if the replacement âworkâ was not at all to my liking.
The only thing in THAT situation was that the project in question was based on my specific input, and then when the friend had been briefed, information that she had not had in the beginning was then something she could potentially put into practice somewhere else, hurting ME more than the company in question as that information was basically my expertise in the field which I had hoped to do something exclusive with (which was why I agreed to this project with the company in the first place).
AnywayâŚas the father in âCheaper by the Dozenâ would say, âThis is not of general interest.â 
As for promises, I think itâs just a cultural thing. Itâs easy to say that different cultures have different values and so forth, but itâs really true. You can argue yourself blue in the face saying that a promise is a promise, but thatâs true in our culture, maybe not in all others. Then we start walking a thin line between saying that âhonesty is an absolute human moral qualityâ and âcultures have the ârightâ to set their own standards.â Perhaps there is some underlying rule (like in Chomskyian syntax) for a transformation in Taiwanese culture that says
UnderlyingIntent â> oral promise / ALL environments
that does not exist in Western culture. In Western culture, there might be some environmental conditioning on when the underlying promise should be transformed into an oral promise:
UnderlyingIntent -->Oral Promise / Adequate Conditions for Carrying Out Same
If this puts you off (as indeed this kind of linguistics always did me) try talking to Alien. I think she actually understands that kind of $%&#%^. 
Anyway, in conclusion, I have always held that making money somewhere else is the best revenge.
Terry
Ask Alien?
âThere is a basic assumption in talk that there is underlying method in the madness.â (Brown and Levinson)
In negative face saving politeness strategies, a speaker may use a measure of synctactic complexity to apologise, express reluctance, give deference and belittle her/himself.
âIâm terribly sorry to bother you with something as silly as this which I wouldnât dream of in normal circumstances since I know youâre very busy, but I was wondering ifâŚâ
It could be that similar âface strategiesâ are typically used by Chinese speakers to save the negative face of job applicants, but which conversely result in a loss of positive face due to crosscultural miscommunication with foreign parties.
I think it applies to anywhere, even in Taiwan. Promises do count, no matter in what forms, writing or talking. However, how you are going to prove it is the difficult part. Thatâs why we need a legal document (contract). Unfortunately, in your case, itâll be very difficult to prove that they did hire you without a contract. Otherwise, you might be able to sue them and claim for your lost.
Also, I think this kind of situation happens everywhere, but not just in Taiwan. Especially when one is a foreigner, it happens even more frequent. Sorry that it happens to any of you⌠Cheer up, at least itâs not so difficult for a foreigner to get a job in Taiwan, compared to a foreigner looking for a job in US or Europe! Right? Drink one more bottle of beer, and you shall be fineâŚ
What I find irritating is that they canât give you a direct answer, but they get pissy if you try to play their game and be evasive and give lots of âplastic face-enhancement smilesâ. It makes it kinda fun. I think itâs worse once youâre actually in the job, because the lying⌠no sorry⌠indirect answers can impede your ability to do your job well.
Just want to say something about the legality of oral promises in Taiwan. When I was in Taiwan, I was living with a Korean guy who brought in his gf to live with him. When I initially moved in, he specifically told me she would visit from time to time, but not live there. Our utilities skyrocketed and so I told him I wanted to pay a smaller fraction of the utilities since one more person was living there. He said no and gave me a lot of crap. So, I went and saw a lawyer who told me that oral contracts in Taiwan are, in fact, legally binding. Of course, they are always hard to prove. He suggested that if I wanted to pursue solving the problem any further, there were small courts in each jurisdiction that dealt with such matters. I then told my roomate that if he was going to renig on the original agreement, then we would take this to this small court (I admit, I didnât want to do this. It was a nice apartment and I didnât want to take this matter to court). He said fine, but later backed off.
So, as I learned from a lawyer in Taiwan, oral contracts are enforcable. Yet, as I said, it sometimes often ends up as a he said-she said dispute.
Peter
One more thing. For any American planning on or currently working in Taiwan at a company, it may help to read a book in international business. One of my degrees in college was in international business management, and the differences between American business culture and non-American business culture was pressed upon us from day one. It certainly isnât easy working for a domestic company in a foreign country. I doubt people with Ph.D.s in international business management can go to work for a company in another country and keep themselves from getting ticked off from time to time. But, in the end, itâs their company in their country, and weâve got to grin and bear it. Otherwise, two other options are to work for an American company there where your supervisor is American or work for a large multinational, such as Acer or Evergreen, where there are established HR departments that know how to deal with foreign employees.
Peter
It seems that in Taiwan and China, âGiving Faceâ, is very important for your social life and business. To me, giving face is synonymous to âKissing Assâ. And I am not a good ass kisser. :?
If someone sucks at their job, how do you spin it to be Give Face?
If someone has bad breath and speaking to you directly, how do you tell him without him losing Face?
If someone is dumbshit, how do you tell the execs and not have anyone lose face? It was probably the dumbass exec that hired the dumbshit in the first place.
This indirectness, is it good or bad for society?
Basically, thatâs it, unfortunately. Kiss ass like never before. Another bonus is to never be seen losing your temper; only get loud and screamy when youâre happy. Stay quiet and smiley when youâre angry. Do the opposite of what youâd do at home. If you catch someone lying, never expose them or their poor face will FALL OFF. (They seem to hate the word âliarâ but not the process of being one; just donât call 'em on it, at least not in front of others).
Do we not kiss ass in the west? I suppose not as much as here, but it certainly is common. Just tell lots of âwhite liesâ but donât get caught in a trap and keep kissing ass when you return home for a visit, as your friends will be onto you (mine were, anyway). They will question why you are so sappy, brownosed and insincere.
Buying gifts seems to be another way to give and get face, especially when youâre visiting someoneâs house; they will positively glow (with insincerity? Weâll never know). And if they give you a gift, accept it with effusive thanks (like itâs the most fabulous thing anyoneâs ever done for you) but donât open it, or they risk losing face. I think thatâs about all I know. Brand names (fake or otherwise) seem to be face-givers for the younger generation.
[quote=âRampageâ]
If someone sucks at their job, how do you spin it to be Give Face?
If someone has bad breath and speaking to you directly, how do you tell him without him losing Face?
If someone is dumbshit, how do you tell the execs and not have anyone lose face? It was probably the dumbass exec that hired the dumbshit in the first place.
This indirectness, is it good or bad for society?[/quote]
Rampage, I have done business in Taiwan and China for years, but I have always had the luxury of being a consultant or a manager, so my perspective will be skewed along those lines. Hereâs my experience:
I am a really poor ass-kisser as well, but I donât equate giving face with kissing ass. I equate it with graciousness and personal respect. I also donât beat around the bush much, I just say things in a more subtle manner than I wold back home, and check for comprehension. People who think giving face and maintaining relationships require lying and insincerity might have it wrong. From where Iâm sitting, I do just fine by being respectful but never kissing arse.
Hereâs what I do in those specific situations:
As good as they are, Iâve had to chew out my vendors here on a few ocassions. I just do it in a way that shows them I respect them as people, but Iâm not happy with that particular performance. It works pretty well.
Hope this helps.
T.
Unlike respect, which is earned or even commanded, face is easily given and lost, making it a pretty cheap commodity.
Rampage asked:
If someone sucks at their job, how do you spin it to be Give Face?
If someone has bad breath and speaking to you directly, how do you tell him without him losing Face?
If someone is dumbshit, how do you tell the execs and not have anyone lose face? It was probably the dumbass exec that hired the dumbshit in the first place.
This indirectness, is it good or bad for society?
Excellent questions, Rampage.
face - donât embarrass anyone
face - donât put anyone in a corner
Saving face: Let them cheat you and get away with it.