The French

See the infamous “Why do so many people hate France?” thread for the rest of “The French” :laughing:

The French (18)

Ah, “Village idiot”. A French phrase, of course. :wink:

It must have been 1962 or 1963. The place is a French village something like 50km north of Paris. Today, it doesn’t really look like a village, rather a residential “place” for town people working in any of the small towns nearby. At that time, there were still small farms there. The one in front of the house I lived in was run by several Belgium brothers. There was also a church, a cemetery, a monument for those in the village who had died for the country (“La Patrie reconnaissante”), a water mill, a caf?and a "place des f

Well I guess we have to come over here to “hate” France now.

Anyway, Taurus and Speak Pigeon, let me ask you this?

What do you think of the French government’s actions prior to the U.S.-led war in Iraq? How do you feel about George W., Tony Blair, Chirac and the situation in the Middle East.

I know a lot of Americans hit the roof when France did what it did in the UN and I have to say from my perspective I have to agree with them. This is what sparked the original thread and since we do have two Frenchmen now I would like to have you address that point if you don’t mind…

I am genuinely interested. Though I will no doubt disagree with you both since you are ignorant and only care about helping your corporations earn illegal profits in the Middle East while going to bed with dictators like Saddam Hussein. Too bad most French cannot show greater moral fortitude, but then I guess that would make them Americans?

By now everyone probably has probably gone to google, typed in ‘‘weapons of mass destruction’’ and clicked the “I’m Feeling Lucky” button.

There is another one you should try. Go to google. Type in ‘‘French military victories’’ and hit the “I’m Feeling Lucky” button.

(My apologies if you have seen these already. They’ve been floating around for at least a month - which is an eternity on the internet.)

I was so glad when Maoman closed the previous thread… Too good to last long.

What actions specificaly? About backing up the US Iraq invasion plan, I’m pretty glad France did not support that. The reasons given by Bush were bullshit. Sponsoring Alqaeda? No sorry, try Saudi Arabia. Weapon of mass destruction. Nope, not since US went there the first time. Bush lied, why should we support his lies?
Well, on that you can add a couple of bad reason,like raise Chirac popularity and protect our investments in the region.
Now tell me why we should have bent over, and let US do whatever they want to do based on big fat lies? That’s not right.

George Bush is a puppet installed by american corporate to protect and increase their money (oil, tobacco…). So far he’s doing a great job. Bigots love him too. He even manage to reduce american citizens liberty, giving them a fake feeling of safety. Well, no surprise here for me.
Blair, well, it’s a tradition now for UK to follow USA in any direction they go. I don’t know what’s the deal but it must be bloody good. If the UK really want to became an American state, fine by me. But we should kicked them out of europe, and if possible move there island on the other side of the atlantic ocean.
Chirac is a swindler, always looking for protecting his own interest, invoking De Gaulle and “la grandeur de la France”. I don’t like him and had to vote for him. Amazing. I guess we have the president we deserve.

Gee… I almost throw up on that one. Do you really think that or that’s a joke.
Ignorant? Funny, that’s usualy what Europeans think of Americans. I don’t say it’s true, but it’s a cliche.
“helping your corporation”, yeah we probably learnt a lot from you in that area guys…
“illegal profits in middle east” what illegal profit? Selling weapons? buying petrol from Saddam? That kind of activites does not have the support of the average Pierre french. You want to juge french on a couple of facts? Fine, let’s watch CNN 10 minutes to see who are americans: they are people forging documents, ex-marines enjoying weird relation with underage girl and playing poker with iraqi’s faces on their cards. Well, that makes you a not lovable guy either Fred. (yeah, I kno that one was childish).
“moral fortitude” I think standing in front of most powerful country, economical and military point of view, to tell them that they can cannot do whatever the hell pleases them is not bad from that point of view. Now tell me what you think of that : proudly saving from a dictator the population of a country full of petrol, but dragging feets to help to save the population of a nothing producing african country when they ask for your help specificaly. Well let me guess, no more money in your budget?
“that would make them American?” Yeah right, god bless america (only). You watch Superman2 last night right? Did you stand with your hand on your heart to write that one?

That was a joke right?

Taurus

Taurus:

I am outraged outraged outraged do you hear? :wink: that you could possibly think that I would watch Superman on television last night. Actually I went to the movies and it was the Incredible Hulk. Though I did place my hand across my heart when the American national anthem came on and actually Monday I lifted two glasses of champagne during the Marsellaise (sp?) Anyway, anything for champagne. But…

Hear where you are coming from but I really believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and the difference between these two views I think is the fact that for better or worse, U.S. and British forces have been the ones holding down the fort (protecting) Saudi Arabia and Kuwait as well as the Kurds in the north, though they did not do such a good job about the Shias in the south. That said, it was still Saddam who pulled the trigger. The US and UK had spent 12 years and a lot of money with the flights and all that and had to station troops in Saudi Arabia which was pissing off fanatics like that Osama bin Laden. Oh, I think that everyone knows what the Saudis are up to and they have been given a strong warning.

As far as I know the French intelligence community never doubted that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction or the programs. The government just did not want to invade.

Finally, do you really think that the US would invade only for oil? From what I know, it will be years and years before any major increase in oil production can be effected (say six to 10 years) because of the new investment required and then there will be the bills to pay and well I don’t know but I think it was more about regional and global security than oil.

Let’s see, how shall I phrase this. Knowing what you do about the United States, do you really think that Washington (Bush) is a major threat to the world community (worse than Saddam?) and are Americans out of control right now and do nations (mostly in Europe like France) need to actively stop it or is this just what the Americans would refer to as reflexive anti-Americanism?

And is it true that soon no one will speak French and that all this huffing and puffing is nothing more than the last gasps of a dying civilization? :wink:

Is that a Jerry Lewis film?

Publisher’s blurb for SIXTY MILLION FRENCHMEN CAN’T BE WRONG by Jean-Benoit Nadeau, Julie Barlow:

At last, a fresh take on a country that no one can seem to understand.
The French smoke, drink and eat more fat than anyone in the world, yet they live longer and have fewer heart problems than Americans. They take seven weeks of paid vacation per year, yet have the world

He had nothing, nada, rien.
You can’t create WMD from good purchased in Bagdad souk. Wake up. It takes a real infrastrucure and also infrastructure for the vector of the weapon. That’s something very very obvious. How do you think everyone knows about the north korea nuclear weapon program? We know what, where. A real program is easy to spot, you don’t need to send UN inspectors.
Maybe you think that a can of chemical or a dirty bomb are WMD?
Take one of the busiest place in the world, shinjuku station in tokyo, 6 packages of sarin gas released like dorks and how many people do you kill?? 12. Wow. Come on, a well placed cluster bomb kills at least ten times more. A dirty bomb is a device of which effectivity is disputed. However that would for sure raised the radioactivity in the area. An invisible ennemy, like germs, is freaking people out. That’s a weapon of mass panic. I guess US are not really worried about that since they didn’t bother securing any potential sites where radioactive wastes (eg from hospital) were stored before several weeks after invasion. Saddam did not have the capability of killing thousand of people. That was bullshit.

Yes he did, there’s no doubt that this guy is an asshole. That’s the good point of that stuff, he not there anymore.

US foreign policy in the middle east has been pissing off locals for the last 50 years. That place is a mess. French have a part of responsability, but that’s mainly the US to blame and that’s why most of locals dislike (at least) Americans.

Gee… so all that was a warning for the real supporter of terror? Please, tell me what country of Asia your country is going to invade to give North Korea a warning?? Mwarf!

As far as I know, french intelligence only mentionned a couple of laboratories on wheel that could drive around the country. Nothing VERY dangerous if true. Please specify your point.

6 to 10 years is “years and years” for you?? Wake up, 6 to 10 years that’s short terms on political or energy management point of view. My short term carrier plan is planned on 5 years!
You mention about a bill, you mean the reconstruction of Iraq? It’s not the US going to pay for that!! US budget is already a black hole and every country wants to be part of the Iraq reconstruction, probably to get some money back.

reflexive anti-americanism is the good word. Many people think US are badly behaving. Then most of people make the link between a country policy and people from that country without trying to see who they really have in front of them. You’re american, I don’t like US policy, so I don’t like you.

It’s true but it won’t happen soon. And since US are ten year ahead of France in everything, I have good hope that your country will die before mine! :wink:

Taurus

Taurus:

Excellent points one and all. I must ponder over a few and track some info down. I am especially keen on the weapons of mass destruction programs would not need inspectors. Assume that you mean Nuclear and not Chemical and Biological. Also that is curious. How much would it take to do how much killing? Finally, as I understand it, there were large amounts of anthrax and chemical agents that Saddam was required to prove were destroyed. This was never done. How much damage could those agents have done? Then were the elaborate precautions that the US troops took against chemical and biological attack just a smokescreen to convince (obviously unconvinced) reporters and people that he really did have weapons of mass destruction. I mean so many reporters were cautioning the US against invading because the troops would be under danger from chemical attack. These same reporters now scoff that Saddam ever had the weapons in the first place. Selective memory?

That said, I am very curious to hear more about your views on the subject primarily for my edification and so I can clear up some of these questions. I will try to find some solid sources to buttress my views in the meatime or else in a fit of laziness demand that Tigerman and Blueface defend my positions.

Next, I am somewhat curious to know how the French would have done things differently. What is the French policy, in your opinion, toward the Arab World. Where has it succeeded? Where has it failed? What can the Americans learn from the French about dealing with the Arabs? Muslims?

Touche to the last point and very well put. Though I suppose the irony is that there will be no one speaking French in 20 years because the Muslims will take over your country and in the United States, no one will speak English anymore because the Mexicans will have taken over and then this thread can finally be laid to rest.

Yeah the WMD deserves a closer look.
I’ll do it too.

Concerning the french policy achievement in arab countries, I’ll do like you for the moment and ask my fellow country men to answer for me.
Hem!.. Speakpigeon…
Wanna drop poetry for a while and give me a hand here? :slight_smile:

Taurus

To add a new subthread, I have a Hungarian student staying with me for a week or so. Tonight he brought up what a bunch of bastards the French are, quite on his own. He hates the Frogs because of the mess they forced on the rest of the world after WWI – among other things, carving off a chunk of Hungary and making it a tiny little country, when it had been one of the largest in Europe. Chirac’s rancid behavior (among other things, his comment that the eastern European EU candidates “missed a good opportunity to shut up”, and his threat to fight against and/or delay their becoming full EU member-states, after Hungary and others supported the U.S.) during the runup to the Iraq War was merely one more minor detail in a long history of the French being a bunch of bastards.

I found it all rather amusing. There is a whole coalition of countries that hate the French. Americans are not being unilateralist!

Taurus the Bull, you doin’ just fine. :sunglasses:

You look like all the French should. :?

Think of Vercingetorix, Louis XI and Mar

Mapodofu:

I recently attended several Bastille Day festivities and most of them were in English. We must be kind to the French. Soon no one but a person or two in the deepest darkest Congo or in the wildest sands of the Sahara will be speak the language. Like Japanese soldiers on remote Pacific Islands, they will do so because they spent forty years cut off from civilization and therefore never realized the war had already been lost…

(hahaha Any frenchies out there…)

Right, I’m away for two weeks, you guys try to keep this controversy going. :shock:

No let up. :sunglasses:

I’m on residence here so I’ll be gathering incontrovertible evidence of all the wrongdoings by
all those bastards (1). :frowning:

Allez salut!

EB

(1) The Frogs, sure, and all those so-called tourists who have the cheek to come here when
they should be boycotting the Eiffel Tower and all the rest of it – Ok, now it’s a bit cheaper
but it’s no excuse.

(2) “Frog” is not a slur, it’s a jibe. :sunglasses:
There’s a British (I think) pub in Paris called the “Frogs & the Rosbifs” :wink:


Nothing called “The Frogs & les Ricains”, though. :cry:

EB


Mapodofu,

if your student come back on that subject, I’d like you to “tease” him a bit to see if he made his own opinion or “bought” it cheap from someone else.
Here some facts you can mention:
From a general point of view, if joining the EU is so important for him, he should understand that we (europeans) must stop living in the past (but of course not forget it). Europe has an old history and each country has been on war with the others. There’s no way the EU will achieve something if we still hate each other for what happened 50, 100, 500 years ago. I’m not hating German now because someone from Germany killed some of my relatives in ww2.
In any case, after wwi, France screwed up the peace treaty and was that partly the reason for ww2, that’s true.
Now to go more into details, you can tell him that “his” country at that time was a kingdom, alliance of Austria and Hungary, plus other annexed people.
Better, Austria-Hungary started WW1, did he forget that details? When Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia (that they wanted to invade, just like they were not big enough, greedy people?), Russia bound by treaty, mobilize its troops to defend it. Germany considered it as an aggression on Austria-hungary and declared war on Russia. France, bound by treaty to Russia declared war on Germany, and as England was bound to France, well you guess… Note that Germany immediately invade the neutral Belgium. Nice one.
So if he thinks is a victim of ww1, he’d better pull his head out of his butt and read an history book.
Besides, if Hungary is now late in its economic developement (but they’re working on it quite well), is it only because of France or could it be related to the fact that they were under communist regime for so long? Just a question.
And also, I’m sure Czeck (spelling?) and Slovakian are not nostalgic of the “good old time”, when they were annexed by Austria-hungary.

Now concerning Chirac’s statement, I don’t know about that. So I’ll shut up.

Taurus

Mes amis Francaises:

Je ne peut pas resister…

Headline of today’s Washington Times:

Blair says ‘destiny’ is calling U.S. to be a global leader

I know that many of you will no doubt be highly appreciative of the new US role in the world. Perhaps Bush can assist with some of the problems that France faces today. I am sure that if Chirac calls and asks him nicely, Bush would be sure to offer him some helpful suggestions…

A recent book by Joly about Elf Aquitaine and France… includes the following excerpt…

She says Elf’s practices are not uncommon in France

:smiley:
That guy was already kissing asses, now he uses his tongue!
Replace “destiny” by “God” and that’s just perfect.

USA are already a global leader in the way that they can make many countries under their sphere of influence go wherever they want. As being THE world leader, I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Anyway, I can’t believe that English people follow Blair on that one. Any Brit to give a feedback here?

Taurus

Fred Smith, you are a nice guy and it’s nice to talk with you but you are so naive.
In my business, to get a contract from customers, it is perfectly standard to offer them small trips, restaurant plus hooker or other few things they may like. And I’m talking about contract of let’s say, 300,000 euro. On our market, we have british, japanese, american competitors and they do that too. That’s part of the game. No gift, no contract. Some of our customer are so blunt about that, you would probably be out of breath since you’re so naive. I’m glad that I don’t work in sales.
Just imagine where it can go when talking about millions of dollars contracts, as there is in the oil, arm, airplanes… industries. Every country is in that game, Fred. When talking about money, it doesn’t matter if you are american, french, taiwanese and so on… people forget their principles, well… assuming they had some in the first place.

Now, my problem with USA and this war in Iraq is not that they made it. That was in the logic of their policy in the middle east since ww2. No big surprise, just a step further deep.
What is pissing me off are lies: USA went there to fight terrorism? My ass. 9/11 was the perfect excuse to reinforce their control in the gulf or anything else they would want to do.
Maybe you don’t believe it because I think do don’t realise the importance of oil in our socities. Maybe you think that in the case US would have no control of the oil production in the middle east, what would happen is the gallon of gas a little more expensive. Well, it’s more serious than that. Just have a look on the net on what happen in the 70 when several countries of the gulf made an embargo on oil to USA. No good, right? And that would be worse now since US have already passed their peak oil production.
Thinking about this, not only US have just invaded the second largest proven oil reserve, but also the only country that can significantly increase it’s production. Wow, that makes even more sense.

That’s what is pissing me off with the US now. These lies. Wanna oil? Fine get it, but stop the bullshit. And what is also depressing is all the people believing those lies.

Taurus