Here’s a very interesting article about this AUTOMATIC sport bike. The future of sport bikes?
Look ma! No rear brake pedal!
Look ma! No shifter!
bobepine
Looks like a nice piece of kit.
I think the global two-wheeler market is going to get more and more scooter-y anyway, and that regular scooters, maxi scooters, and hybrid kinds of things such as this will all become more popular.
pfft… any real bike and any real car will always be manual… whoever heard of an auto f1 car??
[quote=“x08”]pfft… any real bike and any real car will always be manual… whoever heard of an auto f1 car??[/quote]Well, that was one of the points in the article. Apparently some modern sports bikes (and F1 cars) have electronic power-assisted gear changes, which are much faster than a manual gear change. From there it’s only one more step to going fully automatic and leaving the pseudo manual push button changing as an option.
But there’s a certain pleasure in shifting, especially if you’re good at it. Perhaps it’s the control; perhaps it’s the more intimate man-machine interaction. It’s not just a matter of speed. There’s an aesthetic quality about it.
[quote]But there’s a certain pleasure in shifting, especially if you’re good at it. Perhaps it’s the control; perhaps it’s the more intimate man-machine interaction. It’s not just a matter of speed. There’s an aesthetic quality about it.[/quote]I agree. Still, I think this will be an old timer point of view in the future. Not yet though, you’re still doing alright. 
Maybe even something racers will not be able to do properly anymore a long time from now when manual shifting and clutching will be thought of the same way as we now think of old cars that had to be started manually. Who knows.
And yes, what joesax said. There are some motorcycles that have already been fitted with similar technology as the F-1. What they are trying to do now is something even faster and fully automatic that would reduce even more the amount of concentration and dexterity required to shift while driving/riding. Faster shifting, better time on the track. They will achieve that eventually, I have no doubt, although I think they have a long way to go to make an automatic bike that would enable pro-riders to do all the tricks they are capable of with the manual clutch. So we may have to keep shifting for quite a few years yet.
bobepine
[quote=“bobepine”]
And yes, what joesax said. There are some motorcycles that have already been fitted with similar technology as the F-1. [/quote]
you’re not talking about quickshifters are you??? the ones that electronically cut the power to the engine or something like that when a gear shift is made?
[quote=“x08”][quote=“bobepine”]
And yes, what joesax said. There are some motorcycles that have already been fitted with similar technology as the F-1. [/quote]
you’re not talking about quickshifters are you??? the ones that electronically cut the power to the engine or something like that when a gear shift is made?[/quote]
You should read the article. It’s not that long and it’s quite interesting.
I think they may be also called Klicktronic or quick changers but the technology they are trying to develop woud be a step ahead of that. [quote]From the other side of the spectrum, there’s the current twist-and-go owners who like the idea of a “proper” bike but are rather put off by all that very odd left hand clutch, left foot gear change stuff (let’s face it, it IS rather arcane). Put the Gilera Ferro gearbox in its (adjustable) automatic mode or thumb through the gears in pseudo manual and …voilà.[/quote][quote]CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) provides, as the name implies, an infinite number of ratios, often through belts and cone shaped pulleys, to perfectly match the engine speed to the throttle position, bike speed, etc. In theory, to get maximum performance, you just have to hold the throttle all the way open and the engine revs to the exact point of maximum power and stays there while the CVT runs through its infinite ratios. No pauses for manual gear changes, just continuous maximum power to the rear wheel. In practice, problems with torque capacity and internal inefficiencies mean CVT systems have so far been unable to match the performance of manual gearboxes. It looks as if we’ll have to wait to see exactly what Gilera have up their sleeve for the Ferro.[/quote]
bobepine
Yes, its buggered now. We are on auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm right? Where am I?
I was just going through that article yesterday. The CVT could be the future.
Don’t remember anyone saying that when I was attempting singlehandedly to defend coasting a while ago. (In the “Are we downshifting?” thread). Would have myself but my only experience of an auto at that time was a Kymco Jockey CVT and it seemed to have quite a bit of engine braking, so I guess they vary.
CVTs usually just stay at the highest ratio they’re capable of once the throttle is rolled off. You get some engine braking until the centrifugal clutch disengages, but it’s like stopping in top gear.
Some automatic cars get larger brakes than their manual versions. If driven the same way they will usually go through pads and rotors faster as well, because there is little or no help from the engine stopping the car.
If we wanted to get really fussy about the engine-braking-or-not question we’d do well to remember it’s neither the engine nor the brakes that stop a vehicle. It’s the tires. Once you have enough negative torque at the wheels to overcome the tires, regardless of where it comes from, the rest is all about weight transfer and modulation. One of the great things about engine braking with a rwd vehicle (including motorcycles) is the ability to change brake bias with the gearbox.
But, Joesax was nice enough to split/create this thread about maxi scooters, so let’s leave it on that topic eh? 
Below is a cascade that shows motive force plotted against speed. It’s based on a 90’s Honda RS125 which as you can imagine is device with a narrow powerband. You can see how little time the engine spends at it’s best power rpm compared the time spent climbing up there and then over the top in order to catch the bottom of the powerband after the shift. The green line shows where the motive force would be if the engine could be held at peak power revs the whole time, which an ideal CVT would do.
Of course the benefits would be a lot less obvious if the bike had a wider powerband. If anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet they can PM me for it.
[quote=“redwagon”]But, Joesax was nice enough to split/create this thread about maxi scooters, so let’s leave it on that topic eh? [/quote]Thanks Redwagon. I tidied things up a little and moved Ed’s post and your reply over here. Though they are closely related topics, perhaps we can keep the maxi scooter thread for discussion of specific maxi scooters, and this thread for the automatic transmission stuff.
Fascinating stuff, by the way. The graph you posted really shows the limits of small manual geared machines! Of course current CVTs don’t keep the revs exactly at the optimum level all the time, but I guess they do a better overall job. Don’t suppose you’ve got a similar chart for a 125 scooter so we can compare?
But I think that on this point as others, big-ish automatic bikes such as maxi scooters don’t have so much of an advantage over their manually geared counterparts. A 500 single has a pretty wide powerband. Not sure whether it even counts as a powerband! So I imagine you can be pretty lazy about changing gears on a manual 500 single, and you’ll still be getting something close to peak power.
Some of the big scooters are twins, though, which makes more sense.
2 Q’s -
Is there an electronic method possible for maintaining greater time in the power band?
Which of the Maxi’s are twin cylinder?
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]2 Q’s -
Is there an electronic method possible for maintaining greater time in the power band?[/quote]Well, I wouldn’t want to steal Redwagon’s thunder. I’ll let him answer that one.
(Actually I have no idea. All I know is that some maxi scooters such as the Suzuki Burgman do have electronic transmission but I don’t know how it works.)
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Which of the Maxi’s are twin cylinder?[/quote]The Yamaha T-max. The Piaggio 500s (I think), and the forthcoming 850. The Honda Silver Wing. The Suzuki Burgman 650 but not the 400 model.
[quote=“joesax”]Actually I have no idea. All I know is that some maxi scooters such as the Suzuki Burgman do have electronic transmission but I don’t know how it works.[/quote]That makes two of us!
They was until it was baned just like active suspension and things like that in the 90’s
Williams even tryed a CVT transmision, but it was banned befour it made race debut.
Auto is a driver aid and only for pussys
As much as I like newer automatic transmissions with their fast shift times, I still can’t trust them enough to buy one. I mean, c’mon, you’re hanging off your bike in the middle of a turn MotoGP style and BAM - it upshifts for you. Way to try to kill you right? And what do you do if you want to drop the clutch or have the precision of gently sliding the gear in slowly? Some things should not be left to computers.
But that is a pretty badass looking scooter. I <3 undertail exhausts.
[quote=“JonHsiungTW”]As much as I like newer automatic transmissions with their fast shift times, I still can’t trust them enough to buy one. I mean, c’mon, you’re hanging off your bike in the middle of a turn MotoGP style and BAM - it upshifts for you. Way to try to kill you right? And what do you do if you want to drop the clutch or have the precision of gently sliding the gear in slowly? Some things should not be left to computers.
But that is a pretty badass looking scooter. I <3 undertail exhausts.[/quote]I don’t think that anyone is suggesting motorbikes have that kind of automatic gearbox. As you say it could be tricky in turns (I wonder whether V-TEC is ever a problem this way). I think that there are two ways it will go. One will be more quickshifter type things, where you decide when to change gear then press a single button to do so. The other will be CVTs (continuously variable transmissions), which don’t have the jumps between gears. I think that CVT motorbikes will likely have “pseudo manual” options which give the feeling of a manual bike with an automatic quickshifter. Some maxi scooters already have this.