The Glass Ceiling

[quote=“Jefferson”]Well, I know plenty of people who gab day and night about this and that great idea. But those people never go anywhere. The really successful people I know work hard at it. They don’t just talk, dream, and/or complain. They work - hard.

Too many people assume that success lies in finding The Great Idea or The Great Product. Or they want to hit it big from some speculative enterprise. They have dreams of winning the lottery, betting on the winning horse, finding Mr. Right, or catching that Next Great IPO just at the right time.

Real success comes from hard work, day in and day out. Everything else is a pipe dream.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying.

At some point working smarter rather than harder is worth thinking about, and preferably sooner rather than later. It’s all relative anyway - without using your head, hard work in itself is not enough if you want real success vs mediocre success.

Well, I’d say you have to work hard and smart. Of course, hopefully over time you’ll gather enough smarts so you don’t have to put so much time into whatever you’re doing. :wink:

[quote=“Jefferson”]Well, I know plenty of people who gab day and night about this and that great idea. But those people never go anywhere. The really successful people I know work hard at it. They don’t just talk, dream, and/or complain. They work - hard.

Too many people assume that success lies in finding The Great Idea or The Great Product. Or they want to hit it big from some speculative enterprise. They have dreams of winning the lottery, betting on the winning horse, finding Mr. Right, or catching that Next Great IPO just at the right time.

Real success comes from hard work, day in and day out. Everything else is a pipe dream.[/quote]

I find it very hard to argue with you here. Especially the day in and day out part…

and the 12-15 hour days…

You forgot the burned-out part though…

I totally agree with everything that people are saying. It’s right on the money for an entrepreneur or anyone who wants to be a self-made success.

…yet I more got the sense that Namahottie wants to get a job as [randomly chosen] an editor, say, and can’t get an interview?

[quote=“Jefferson”]I’ve learned a few things in life:

  1. The world doesn’t owe you anything.

  2. Nobody is going to strain their back opening the gates to the city of gold for you.

  3. If you want something from life, you have to go for it. There is no well paved road to success. Each person has to clear a path through the jungle and pave the road themselves.

  4. YOU are FULLY responsible for your success or failure. Of course there will be setbacks, and of course people will get in your way. It’s up to YOU to overcome these obstacles and slog your way ahead.

  5. Success does not come through a good idea. It does not come through talking to people. It does not come through complaining. It comes through YEAR after YEAR of hard work. It will exhaust you. It will come close to ruining you. While other people have loads of fun and enjoy the merry life, you will be slogging in the gutter and working 10-15 hour days.

  6. Given all of the above, you might still need a bit of luck and good timing.

Of course, that’s just one man’s take on the matter.[/quote]

I like what has been written here and agree with it, except for cases in which things are heavily weighted against a person who wants to make it. Optimism and diligence do pay off, unless say, you’re living in a country where you have very little educational and occupational opportunity, or you are raised in a family that hinders you.

What do you say to a poor kid from some 3rd world country who wants to make something of himself? “Kid, get up each morning, dodge the bullets on your way to class, eat your dirt sandwich for lunch, jog to your job harvesting crops at 5 cents an hour, and keep working at it until you make it to lead laborer”? Or how about a kid in an abusive family? “Son, after your morning beating, get out there and beg until you have enough for lunch and dinner. Then get your ass over to school where you can dodge the drug dealers and gangsters as you get straight As. Make sure you get home in time to watch your father get high and kick the crap out of the entire family”? A kid who grows up this way has to achieve a miracle to get into college, and another hundred or so miracles to actually graduate.

We forget that there are obstacles to success that some of us will never have to face. Yes, the smart person rises to the ocassion, but oftentimes, that isn’t enough.

No question, the cards are stacked against a lot of people. For too many people around the world, there isn’t a chicken in every pot, and just the basics of life are tough. Whereas I do think we need to rely on ourselves to succeed, I also realize that no amount of persisitence can change the miserable living conditions for people in base situations. And that’s a tragedy.

However, I don’t think that scenario applies to anyone here. Just the fact that we’re using a computer to communicate means the basic necessities of life are covered. The fact that we’re living in a foreign country puts us in an even more elite category. Anyone with the wherewithal to pick themselves up and transplant themselves in a foreign country probably has the basic skills to succeed. Add into the mix persistence, hard work, and sacrifice, and you can succeed. It may not be in your current field, but there is something to be said about changing directions if a current path is fraught with frustration and dead ends.

Some people don’t want to work 12-15 hour days and burn themselves out just so they can save money for retirement, by which time they’ll be too old to enjoy it (if they haven’t keeled over from a heart attack before they’re even 40). We work to live, we don’t live to work. Satisfaction and contentment are more important than success.

thank you.
Success is not just about money…

[color=darkblue]A beautiful fishing boat was docked in a tiny coastal village south of the border. An American tourist complimented the local fisherman on the quality of his fish and the beauty of his boat and asked how long it took him to catch them.

“Not very long,” answered the fisherman.

“But then, why didn’t you stay out longer and catch more?” asked the American.

The man explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family. The American asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

“I sleep late, play with my children, catch a few fish, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings I go into the village to see my friends, have a few drinks, play the guitar and sing a few songs. I have a full life…”

photoThe American interrupted, “Hey, I have a MBA and I can help you. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middleman, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angeles or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge enterprise.”

“How long would that take?” asked the fisherman. “Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years,” replied the American.

“And after that?” asked the fisherman.

“Afterwards? That’s when it gets really interesting,” answered the American, laughing. “When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions!”

“Millions? Really? And after that?” asked the fisherman.

“After that you’ll be able to retire, live in a tiny coastal village, sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta with your wife and spend your evenings drinking and playing the guitar with your friends!”[/color]

mybajaranch.com/fishingstory.html

And for some people, who know their work is important and not just about money, working 12-15 days is worth it. It may not be all shits and giggles, but there’s something to be said for accomplishing something and knowing one has done something meaningful with one’s life.

Truant - I’m curious why your example uses an American. Was that a conscious choice? If so, can you explain a bit about why that nationality was chosen?

Obviously I don’t know why Truant chose to use an American, but one often reads that Americans work more than anyone else in the developed world. And the gap is growing. While most Europeans and others are taking advantage of increased productivity to take longer vacations and work fewer hours, Americans are doing the opposite – taking less vacation and working more hours every year. Anyway, it makes sense to me that he’d use an American in the anecdote. :idunno:

[quote=“Jefferson”]
Truant - I’m curious why your example uses an American. Was that a conscious choice? If so, can you explain a bit about why that nationality was chosen?[/quote]

I posted the link that it came from. I have no idea, but I do believe that is irrelevant.

I’ve really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks, Namahottie, and thanks to everybody else who has posted. I also wouldn’t mind reading some more along these lines.

xp+10K

[quote=“Namahottie”]How many people have hit the glass ceiling while living here? I feel as though I have it with teaching, and just have come to a point where I am exasperated in trying to make an effort to create something that seems, futile at times. I have made efforts to apply to jobs that I have skills for but can’t seem to get in the door for the interview, or maybe to the reviewers don’t think I have the exact experience they are looking for. I feel that I have gained all that I can gain from teaching English on a personal level, and I’m trying to break out before it becomes a ‘pick up a paycheck’ situation.

Has anyone been here before? If you made the career transition how did you do it? Thoughts anyone?[/quote]

Just quoting to remind myself of what the OP actually asked. Don’t want to go off at a tangent too much.

I think we all agree that being an employed teacher is a dead-end. It’s not that there’s a glass ceiling, it’s that you’re climbing a very small heap. There’s just nowhere to go, and if you want progression you need to move out of it.

And it has been discussed elsewhere that teaching experience in Taiwan counts for very little when you try and get back into the real world. So getting out of teaching may not be easy, especially after a few years.

I assume, as you mention interviews, that you’re talking about switching careers in Taiwan? So what do you have to offer a potential employer? I feel that I have a lot to offer, but I expect that anyone reading my CV would form their opinions based on their own pre-conceptions.

Basically, and this is not just a TW problem, if you don’t fit the profile they are looking for then employers often just reject you out of hand. You need to have the right piece of paper, the right experiences in the right places, and present yourself in just the way they want you to. It doesn’t matter that you know you could do the job. Credentials are everything and many employers are looking for just the right size and shape of cog to fit into their machine. I think we’re all familiar with the problem, but solutions vary.

I have a friend who has done exceedingly well out of teaching without going to all the trouble of starting his own school. He’s published a few text books, which are sold by his school, and he lectures big classes of students who have come to see the superstar. He’s ‘just an employee’ but he has a lot of control over his situation and makes substantially more than any other teacher I know. He has moulded the place he works around himself, instead of pushing himself into someone else’s mould to get a job. Basically the school does his marketing and administration for him.

He has more talent, skills, and commitment than me so I’m not going to even try and emulate him. But that doesn’t stop me learning from the example. How to make a successful career out of teaching, and climb onto a bigger heap, is a different topic - because I get the impression that you’ve had enough of it anyway - but being successful at one thing is much the same as being successful at another.

Like Jefferson said, you have to work at it, and, like someone else said, you have to be lucky, and, like someone else said, you need to define your goals first. More on that in a minute. :slight_smile:

I’m doing the career transition thing myself, but not by jumping from one thing to another. I do enough teaching to support myself, and I don’t look at it as ‘just a paycheck’. I really do enjoy it and feel good about it, and I like my students and myself for doing it. But it’s not the be-all and end-all of my life, my future is not a series of English lessons leading me into middle age, nor is teaching taking all my time. Because it’s a manageable amount of time I’m still happy with it, but the key for me is to have a deadline.

I have set a date at which I will leave Taiwan and give up teaching, and I tell people about it all the time. It forces me to get my act together. You may have a better way, but it’s what works for me. I have 14 months to reach my goals, and time set aside every day/week to do the necessary work. I can’t just complain, I have to be pro-active in managing my situation.

In theory my professional life will evolve into something different as the ratio of teaching to ‘other’ swings from 9-1 to 1-9.

What you choose for ‘other’ depends on you, and I can’t really give you any suggestions other than to try and ease yourself across. Try finding some p/t work doing what you want to do, even if it doesn’t pay well. It creates opportunities. Don’t do more than you have to of what you don’t want to do. It takes your energy and time. And try to like whatever you have to do until you don’t have to do it any more.

Work. Luck. Goals.

Yeah, right! :unamused:

The best definition of a businessman I ever heard is someone who spends all morning in the office talking about golf, and all afternoon on the golf course talking about business.

Of course work is necessary. You can’t just sit at home and wait for opportunity to come and kick your door down. Usually it is necessary to put a lot in to get anything out, but that doesn’t create an automatic association between hard work and success.

In fact, some people equate an absence of hard work with success. If you’re giving up all your free time then you’re not successful. And many people work hard all their lives and never really get anywhere. Where is their success? Plenty of people have made huge fortunes by paying other people to work hard while they personally were hanging out on the golf course.

All human progress has been made by people seeking an easier way to do things. The desire to not work is what has created civilisations. It may be - is usually - necessary to work hard to achieve your goals, but I would never advocate anyone accepting hard work as being an essential part of the human condition. Laziness is, and should be, the goal.

Oh yes, goals. This one really pisses me off. How the hell do people go about setting goals? Are they shaped by what you want, or by what you think you can achieve? Here’s a teacher sitting on top of his dungheap, looking at the mountains. Can he/she really say “I want to climb to the top of the highest one,” or “I want to find a nice little valley about 1/3 of the way up that one,” or “Fuck, they’re huge. I can’t climb one of those,” or what?

It’s only when you get into the mountains that you find out about the valleys, and learn whether you can climb them or not, and who knows? You may not even like mountains up close after all. Or maybe you will find that from only halfway up you can see yet more peaks, or whole new countries to conquer, or find paths leading under the mountains to untold wonders.

Why set a goal that may or may not be attainable and may or may not be what you really want as you get close. What’s wrong with wanting to get off this dungheap and go see the mountains up close, before you decide what to do next?

Too many people work too hard pursuing impossible goals. Too many more condemn themselves to hard work because they daren’t aspire to more. Often I think that this goal-setting mania, emanating from an entire industry of self-help books, is all bollocks.

Finally, luck.

Shit happens. Deal with it.

Whether shit is good or bad depends on your ability to deal with it. The more open you are to having shit happen to you, the greater the likelihood that something will change. People who avoid risk don’t ever get lucky. People who don’t learn how to manage risk have a lot of bad luck. Those who learn to see the opportunity in every problem are the ones who succeed. (If they work hard.)

Grad school or law school back in the States is realistically the only way to break through this glass ceiling. To borrow Loretta’s terminology, working 12 hours/day in an office in Taiwan is a long struggle to the top of a small garbage heap.

At least that’s what I’m telling myself I’ll do when I’m 30 or so and have had my fill of goofing around Asia.

In the mean time, my goals (becoming fluent in Taiwanese and one more Chinese dialect, working on my photography) are completely non-professionally related. If I can make serious progress to those fulfilling those goals in the next four to five years, I’ll feel pretty happy when I go back to hit the books.

[quote=“Jefferson”]I’ve learned a few things in life:

  1. The world doesn’t owe you anything.

  2. Nobody is going to strain their back opening the gates to the city of gold for you.

  3. If you want something from life, you have to go for it. There is no well paved road to success. Each person has to clear a path through the jungle and pave the road themselves.

  4. YOU are FULLY responsible for your success or failure. Of course there will be setbacks, and of course people will get in your way. It’s up to YOU to overcome these obstacles and slog your way ahead.

  5. Success does not come through a good idea. It does not come through talking to people. It does not come through complaining. It comes through YEAR after YEAR of hard work. It will exhaust you. It will come close to ruining you. While other people have loads of fun and enjoy the merry life, you will be slogging in the gutter and working 10-15 hour days.

  6. Given all of the above, you might still need a bit of luck and good timing.

Of course, that’s just one man’s take on the matter.[/quote]

I concur. You’ve got to make yourself count. The problem is not out there. It’s more in your mind.

One way - if you want to stay in teaching, of breaking the glass ceiling is getting an MA / MSc in TESOL / TEFL. If you don’t mind two years hard slog then could be involved in diverse, challenging, fairly well paid work with good career prospects. Just my take of course.

A lot of times, I found my life made a turn for the better, if not much better, when I was absolutely bored/frustrated/pissed off… It was challenging during those times, but they evetually gave me the motivation to change. So, sounds like you are in a good place to start changing your life, however challenging it may be right now.

What do you like to do? What do you enjoy? What’s the one thing you’d be doing if you have all the money in the world? That’s always a good place to start exploring.