Slightly off-topic, but I thought that posting it here would be better than creating a new thread. Free to kick the comment out
Mod edit: Moved from Legal. Yes I realize we’re still stuck in 2021 for a bit longer.
I love Taiwan despite its loads of nonsensical regulations, I am glad to be back with a Gold Card and even more to be able (hopefully) to settle down in a couple of years with an APRC. However, the idea of eventually taking up Taiwanese citizenship has never actually come to my mind. Maybe I was influenced by the years that I spent in Singapore, where PRs are considered part of the population (the dual label Singaporean/PR everywhere) with just a few less benefits than citizens as a trade-off, but I really can’t see the necessity of adding another nationality. Especially if it means renouncing mine and then reapplying to have it back.
Am I the only one who feels like that? Wouldn’t lobbying for a stronger, better defined and more recognised APRC status (Singapore-model) be a better alternative?
No. Two reasons. One. Citizenship gives rights. Permanent residents get privileges.
Two. Singapore’s citizenship laws are fair. NOBODY can be dual citizens with Singapore. In Taiwan. It’s some people. Having citizenship is for life. It’s less paperwork. It’s less hassle. It’s having a say in how things are run. It’s knowing in the back of your head that you will never be told no at the border.
You might say, well… I have been good and never have committed crimes so there is no reason for them to kick me out or deny me. I don’t intend on committing future crimes either.
But, people unintentionally commit crimes ALL the time.
You can ask Jaskirat Singh Sidhu, the driver responsible for the crash with the bus carrying the Humboldt Broncos. This isn’t some premeditated bank robber. It was a freak accident. Prison is already a big punishment, but expulsion means losing everything. This is something that citizens do not have to face. Accidents and lapses in judgement can happen to anyone. Even you.
Got caught smoking that one joint one time in Taiwan? BAM! Instant death sentence.
There have been people who have lived in a country all their life that were PRs and were expelled to a country they barely know and have no local language or cultural skills.
Well No. Dual citizenship is allowed in Taiwan. If it’s such a problem. Then they should ban it entirely.
Why would the majority of representatives waste time on us? We can not give them votes and are just a tiny fraction.
So far it is mostly brushed off as businesses can decide who they do business with.
I think a legal challenge has more merit based on equality and human rights.
e.g. better gay rights were achieved through legal system and not politicians or popular support
We (as contributing noncitizens residing in Taiwan) have has the absolute best advocates for us so far in the Tsai government, especially in the National Development Council (which largely sets government policy). They have seen the writing on the wall with the old system and see us as part of a better performing Taiwan (economically speaking) in the future.
But who knows who will be in charge after Tsai steps down? A China first president is possible, though the electorate seems unlikely now to vote for such a candidate. A Taiwan nationalist president who dislikes foreigners is also possible and unlikely to look out for us.
Based on these possible futures, I think now’s the time to push for change.
This is also an interesting feature of the Tsai government! The courts have led the way in enacting progressive change. Typically in East Asia, the courts follow what the ruling party wants. So if we want the courts to do something, who will be our Chi Chia-wei (祁家威)?
Wow just got a reply from them. The solution offered makes me sound like a money launderer. Really not sure if I should even post this excerpt:
Here’s the beginning excerpt:
Haven’t posted the whole thing because idk if I should.
Let’s be clear I’m only jumping through these hoops because they are saying they aren’t willing to do business with USA nationals. I’m willing to do KYC verification. But if they insist they want to close my account, I’d prefer they change these details saying I’m not willing to do KYC because I am willing, and I’m not laundering anything but clothes, but just worried any pushback will have them just keep my bitcoin. Surely there are lots of other Americans here in the same situation?
Also, at the end, it says the Chinese part is binding, but of course they didn’t send the Chinese part.
Icing on the cake is the part where I hand write my other bitcoin address to send to. I’m sure we’ve all seen cases where our handwritten letters are mistaken as other things. I’d actually just prefer a transfer to my already linked bank account.
@Marco I’ve always thought your push for dual nationality was kind of too far-fetched to be plausible. I was treating things as “deal with little issues as they come” because big change isn’t possible.
Mainly my issue with dual nationality was how can we assure Taiwanese that Chinese aren’t gaming the system and thus affecting voting counts in local elections. Not sure if there’s a solution there. But starting to see dual-nationality as the only way. Surely there is some way to keep any conniving Chinese influence out while still getting our more legitimately interested voices in?
I totally disagree. Dealing with the little issues as they go means you will be stuck with an endless battle that only hurts you. The root of all our problems comes from the government. Its lack of strong consumer and anti-discrimination protections coupled with a glass ceiling that is citizenship.
That’s a complete non-issue and a strawman argument. Chinese cannot be dual citizens with Taiwan. You know the political status of Taiwan. Chinese people cannot simply come here and influence elections and get ID cards cause they are, according to the ROC constitution, of the same country but different areas.
They are ROC nationals without household registration.
But they could get another country’s citizenship and then come in through that channel to get dual citizenship if it were a thing, could they not? And thus game the system if they wanted to.
That is so unbelievably time consuming, difficult and frustrating that almost nobody does it. They could do it right now by simply getting PR in a country like Canada, be reclassified as overseas Chinese and get a TARC. But almost nobody is THAT determined to do it. That’s a five to ten year commitment to pull off per person. I am balking at taking 3-4 years off my life to regain my two countries. And NWOHR people still need to go through the immigration vetting process to come to Taiwan anyways.
It’s such a non-issue that it’s not even worth anyone’s time thinking about it.
Being forced to give up is NOT an obstacle to someone THAT determined.
Most people just want to live their life. A Chinese agent working for the state to sow chaos in Taiwan is not going to care about retaining his or her dual citizenship.
Additionally, China only allows single citizenship and has started enforcing it on Hong Kongers as well. Those working for the state will no longer have their adopted country’s citizenship anyways. So, a Chinese-controlled Taiwan will say bye bye to dual nationals anyways.
Additionally II: My friend’s girlfriend is Chinese. He likes to live in Taiwan and wants to be here but bringing her over short of marriage is impossible. She balked at the idea of getting a Taiwanese ID card by cancelling her Chinese ID, despite the fact that the Chinese Compatriot Pass given to Taiwanese offers more movement than the household registration in China.
Practically, not. It turns out the NIA, as a former police force, is pretty handy at weeding out Chinese dual (and former) nationals using other citizenships. Even when applicants try to hide it. I see it pretty regularly over in the gold card stuff.
Taiwan is going to really really relax rules in the future you’ll see. Taiwan as many other asian countries are currently in the “lets plug our ears and hope things get better” stage. They believe their citizen will magically start popping out multiple babies.
Taiwan is going to be dealing with a MAJOR MAJOR population crisis in the next decade. Like Germany after ww2 they allowed migrants to come in and work, treat them like shit, and then fuck off to their own country. Germany learned quickly that you cannot sustain this purity race bullshit that they envisioned because they needed labor, so they started accepting more migrants again, and then told them to all fuck off in 1997. Now they turbo charged their refugee program to get more people into Germany to essentially keep German labor going.
The Head of the Federal Employment Agency, Detlef Scheele, said that Germany needs 400,000 new workers per year to fill the labour market, which can be possible by admitting more immigrants to the country, meaning that Germany’s economy is currently dependent on immigration.Aug 27, 2021.
Taiwan is still not even in shock yet, it will come down hard and heavy. Not only Taiwan but Korea and Japan, etc etc.
JP will start the discussion soon, their Immigration Policy (which is not been called like this, but it is what it is) is already opening the doors more to immigrants (this is what we are, immigrants, hate the word expat). The Gold Card in TW is a very good starting point, the old Plum Blossom Card and the “simplified naturalisation process” is also a starting point, but imho there should be some type of automation to convert the GC Special Foreign Professional to Senior Foreign Professional (i.e. the Plum Blossom Card) to naturalise without renouncing to your citizenship(s), or at least cut the nonsensical 1 yr lag between naturalisation proper (on a TARC) and getting the national ID (and getting Household registration+real passport). This unfortunately will apply only to white collar (mostly westerners or other developed Asian countries) immigrants, will very unlikely be extended to the blue collar workers.
That is the meaning of the last part of my post. I would love to see this for everyone, but needs to start somewhere. It is near impossible to just blanket extended to everyone for the TW mindset, you need to open the door a little at least, then let the people in. I completely agree with you on the equality, but it is not applicable yet for the Taiwanese society, the boomers and elders (those who hold the stick still) are still too racist against SE Asians, Africans and other non-white or northern Asians. As the younger Taiwanese will get the posts that counts, things will change.
