# The h \> sh shift from ancient Chinese to modern Mandarin **URL:** \ **Category:** Learning Chinese\ **Created:** [September 6, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178 "2023-09-06T07:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/1 "2023-09-06T07:38:25Z")
The _h_ sound in middle Chinese shifted to _sh_ in modern Mandarin (also attested to by cognates in Japanese and Korean). Sound shifts tend to recur the same way across the world. But I hadn’t encountered any languages wherein this happened, until now. Oddly, the shift appears to have happened in reverse happened when Akkadian evolved into West Semitic languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic). ![image](https://forumosauploads-12829.kxcdn.com/original/3X/b/3/b3f655cf6c979475970c42e8e07e47974db5925e.jpeg) I asked Chat-GPT which language is older: > Is Akkadian older or Aramaic? > > ChatGPT > > Akkadian is generally considered to be older than Aramaic. Akkadian is an ancient Semitic language that was spoken in Mesopotamia, primarily in the region of ancient Sumer and Babylon, dating back to the third millennium BCE. It is one of the earliest known written languages and was used in the cuneiform script on clay tablets for various administrative, religious, and literary purposes. > > Aramaic, on the other hand, is also an ancient Semitic language but emerged later than Akkadian. Aramaic is believed to have originated in the 11th century BCE and was spoken in a wide geographic area, including parts of modern-day Syria, Iraq, Iran, and beyond. It became a lingua franca in the ancient Near East and was widely used for trade, diplomacy, and communication among different peoples. > > So, to summarize, Akkadian predates Aramaic in terms of its historical attestation and use. Or, maybe it was “h” in Proto-Semitic and only Akkadian shifted. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/NUSuQFaCVIs/maxresdefault.jpg "Pronouns in the Semitic Languages - Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, & Hebrew Language Geography") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUSuQFaCVIs) ---
**Author:** ![yanganlun](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/y/9de0a6/32.png) [@yanganlun](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/yanganlun)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 7:45am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/2 "2023-09-06T07:45:49Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > when Akkadian evolved into West Semitic languages (Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic). Is Akkadian not East Semitic? A completely different branch. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 8:06am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/3 "2023-09-06T08:06:41Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > The _h_ sound in middle Chinese shifted to _sh_ in modern Mandarin Can you give some examples for this change in Middle Chinese? I can’t think of any. Unless you are talking about the case of g/q \> k \> kh \> h \> ∅ g/q \> k \> kh \> h \> ɕ \> s An example of the top route would be 胡 \*[ɡ]ˤa \> ko (Japanese) \> ho (Korean/Vietnamese) \> oo (Taigi) An example of the bottom route would be 兇 \*qʰ(r)oŋ \> kū (Japanese) \> hiong/hyung/hung (Taigi/Korean/Vietnamese) \> xiong The process of palatalization also transformed many words that used to start with t or d into s in later languages. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 8:28am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/4 "2023-09-06T08:28:35Z")
> [@yanganlun](#): > > Is Akkadian not East Semitic? A completely different branch. Yes, but since it’s older that generally means it’s closer to proto-Semitic. But you’re right, I incorrectly said Akkadian “evolved.” ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 8:49am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/5 "2023-09-06T08:49:52Z")
> [@hansioux](#): > > Can you give some examples for this change in Middle Chinese? I can’t think of any. Unless you are talking about the case of Are you kidding? Just about everything. Also, is there a reason you’re comparing Sino-Xenic vocabulary and not Mandarin? 希望 hibang (Holo) \> xiwang 鞋子haiye (Hakka) \> xiezi 香港 hyonggang (Holo) \> xianggang 兄弟 hingdai (Cantonese) \> xiongdi ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:00am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/6 "2023-09-06T09:00:50Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > The _h_ sound in middle Chinese shifted to _sh_ in modern Mandarin > [@OysterOmelet](#): > > 希望 hibang (Holo) \> xiwang Yeah, you didn’t write x or ɕ though, you just used sh and followed that up with Modern Chinese. It’s kind of hard to guess you meant ɕ. In that case, you are talking about the bottom route of g/q \> k \> kh \> h \> ɕ \> s I find it difficult to imagine ɕ or ʃ could turn into h, so I would guess in the case of Semitic languages, the ones with h have the more conservative feature. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 9:08am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/7 "2023-09-06T09:08:31Z")
> [@hansioux](#): > > Yeah, you didn’t write x or ɕ though, you just used sh and followed that up with Modern Chinese. It’s kind of hard to guess you meant ɕ. Umdersrood, I don’t know linguistic markers. ---
**Author:** ![user86](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/u/2acd7d/32.png) [@user86](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/user86)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 10:46am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/8 "2023-09-06T10:46:35Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > The _h_ sound in middle Chinese shifted to _sh_ in modern Mandarin Did Mandarin come from Middle Chinese? I always thought languages like Hokkien and Cantonese were the ones that came from it. And yes, a lot of _sh_ sounds in Mandarin are _h_ in Cantonese. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/9 "2023-09-06T13:23:33Z")
> [@user86](#): > > Did Mandarin come from Middle Chinese? I always thought languages like Hokkien and Cantonese were the ones that came from it. They all did. Hokkien and Cantonese are just closer to Middle Chinese, because Mandarin got bastardized by Manchus and Mongols. We know this because Tang Dynasty poems rhyme in Hokkien and Cantonese, and don’t in Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![user86](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/u/2acd7d/32.png) [@user86](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/user86)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/10 "2023-09-06T13:25:33Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > We know this because Tang Dynasty poems rhyme in Hokkien and Cantonese, and don’t in Mandarin. And how do we know that Mandarin came from Middle Chinese? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/11 "2023-09-06T15:52:34Z")
> [@user86](#): > > And how do we know that Mandarin came from Middle Chinese? Just curious. Sinitic languages having roughly the same syntax with virtually all shared vocabulary suggests a common origin, and Mandarin being a young language. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/12 "2023-09-07T01:08:23Z")
> [@OysterOmelet](#): > > and Mandarin being a young language. When the Ming empire collapsed, the Guanhua (Chinese koine) at the time was based on the Nanjing accent, and that was evident in Matteo Ricci, Ferdinand Verbiest and Johann Adam Schall von Bell’s records. The current form of Mandarin wasn’t widely used in Beijing’s outer city even by 1815 when Robert Morrison wrote his Chinese dictionary. So the current form of Mandarin probably didn’t gain its current status until the 1850s. Based on that, the current form of Mandarin is probably at most 200 years old, and grew out of the Manchu-Old Pekingese pidgin adopted by the Manchus living in the Inner city. I wrote a much more detailed post on this subject here: > [@Chinese is such an archaic language, it will be very difficult](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/chinese-is-such-an-archaic-language-it-will-be-very-difficult/183610/255): > > Ok, I feel like I need to rehash some of the things I’ve mentioned on forumosa before. When the Manchu sacked Beijing in 1644, people of Beijing spoke the Mandarin (官話) of the time, the Chinese Koine, which was based on the Nanjing accent, since Ming was founded by a group of people from the south, and the first capital of Ming was Nanjing. The Nanjing accent, which is a part of the Wu branch, retained many features of Middle Chinese. The Chinese Koine at the time still retained most checke… ---
**Author:** ![the\_bear](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/the_bear/32/192391_2.png) [@the\_bear](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/the_bear)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/13 "2023-09-07T01:38:52Z")
Haizi is also Shanghainese for 鞋子 if my memory serves me well. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2023, 3:14am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/14 "2023-09-07T03:14:58Z")
> [@the\_bear](#): > > Haizi is also Shanghainese for 鞋子 if my memory serves me well. The 圭 phonetic component signifies when the character was created it began with a k or g sound, and sounded the same as 攜, 奚, 佳 at one time. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 6:12am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/15 "2023-10-04T06:12:54Z")
Learn Akkadian [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Vuwi9dx-hJo/maxresdefault.jpg "Introduction to Akkadian") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuwi9dx-hJo) Apparently Akkadian uses ideograms borrowed from Sumerian, in addition to its phonetic system. Like Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![hansioux](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/hansioux/32/253648_2.png) [@hansioux](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/hansioux)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 1:59am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/16 "2025-06-30T01:59:35Z")
I failed to recognize how pretty Akkadian is back in 2023. ---
**Author:** ![OysterOmelet](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/user_avatar/tw.forumosa.com/oysteromelet/32/219695_2.png) [@OysterOmelet](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/OysterOmelet)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/the-h-sh-shift-from-ancient-chinese-to-modern-mandarin/233178/17 "2025-06-30T13:22:54Z")
> [@hansioux](#): > > I failed to recognize how pretty Akkadian is back in 2023. That’s probably just some graduate student making the video to help herself remember stuff for her homework.