The Holocaust

To say “the Holocaust existed” is not simply a matter of historical fact, but inevitably involves an element of contemporary political framing. For example, it is no accident that this principal is being grilled about his attitudes towards “the Holocaust”, but not (say) the Circassian genocide. To commemorate “the Holocaust” is to elevate Jewish deaths (and thus present-day Jewish political clout which insists on such commemoration) over other groups, including present-day Palestinians who are the victims of present-day Jews.

I do not agree with your opinion.

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The Holocaust stands out historically because of the sheer scale of the slaughter. Not only 6 million Jews, but 2 million Roma, millions of Soviet POWs and citizens, other Slav ethnic groups, people with disabilities, gay men…

To not commemorate it because doing so “elevate(s) Jewish deaths” would be to ignore the greatest tragedy in human history.

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Only Jewish deaths are customarily included in “the Holocaust.” As for the sheer scale, this was exceeded by both Stalin and Mao.

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Mao was primarily down to incompetence. Stalin, possibly, if genocide is extended to include social classes.

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How could you know that? All we can see from the article is that he is unwilling to recognize historical fact. Have you ever heard of Holocaust denial? Or is that also an example of some kind of principled stand?

You are creating an either/or scenario that doesn’t exist. It is possible and ideal to commemorate the holocaust and also pay tribute to the deaths of other groups, of course including present-day Palestinians. You haven’t made an argument as to why the holocaust shouldn’t be commemorated.

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It is not customary to only include Jewish deaths. It is customary to point out both the number of Jews and the overall total, including gypsies, homosexuals, etc.

Yes, the sheer scale was exceeded by Stalin and Mao. What does that have to do with not teaching about the holocaust?

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I don’t know any knowledgeable person who only includes Jewish deaths in the Holocaust.

Yes, Stalin and Mao were debatably responsible for more deaths from their policies. However, the Nazi Holocaust stands out in the huge number of people killed in a very short period of time, the assembly-line efficiency with which it was carried out, and the fact that there was never any attempt to justify it as a step on the road to some kind of utopia–it was simply the well-organized murder of millions of people because they were thought to be literally subhuman.

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Does the phrase “six million Jews” ring a bell? Gypsies etc. are an asterisk.

If he were unwilling to recognize, say, the Norman Conquest, this might be seen as odd, but I doubt he would have been punished for it.

It is theoretically possible, but as a practical matter these groups tend to compete for recognition. In Israel, recognition of the Armenian genocide is complicated by foreign policy considerations vis-a-vis Turkey.

This would be on you. Can you find other examples of people denying established historical facts?

You mean ,of course, excluding California and NY …Universities and Politicians ? :wink:

I thought this might be a problem :slight_smile: let’s say similar examples involving educators :slight_smile:

Darn it :smiley: I was about to give hundreds of examples of ludicrous History and Art censorship …in the name of “diversity and progressivism
Spoilsport :stuck_out_tongue:

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An asterisk to you, maybe. Ever hear of “projection”?

Does the full phrase, “six million Jews, 11 million people in total” ring a bell? It should, because that is what is taught and what most people know.

First, you are using the subjective feelings of Israel as a nation to explain the why it should be okay for a principal in America to consider not teaching the holocaust in full to American students. These issues do not equate. Yes, Israel has a complex history with its neighbors, but that has nothing to do with what should be taught in America.

Second, as practical matter, these groups do not compete for recognition IN AMERICA. These are all supposed to be taught in standard curriculum, and if any part is not, including, but not limited to, the Holocaust, it is a problem. It happens to be more of a problem whenever you are dealing with not teaching about genocide, which the Holocaust was.

Again, if you are talking about a question of public outrage, sure, people are much more concerned when you gloss over the Holocaust then they are when you gloss over the Norman Conquest. But do you really think parents would have not been upset if the principal of the school that their children attend denied the historical facts of the Norman Conquest? Of course they would! They want their children to be taught factual accounts of history.

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The holocaust affects people to this day. I have extended family on my mother’s side who died in the holocaust… cousins of my maternal grandparents who stayed in Poland. And that loss ripples through families for generations. Now, I see you’ve tied this up in some convoluted way to how we frame current affairs and while I support the concept of Israel, I also really hate the Netanyahu government and their dehumanization of the Palestinians. So don’t frame this in the modern context of some Israeli/Palestinian conflict, because then it seems you’re the one pushing an agenda. And before you bemoan how much it’s elevated and still discussed to this day, please remember that 6 million Jews were exterminated. Another 4 million disabled people, homosexuals, Polish people, Roma, and Russians were also killed in the camps. If we wrote down every victim’s name it’d take us weeks. So yeah, that shit deserves to be acknowledged and remembered forever. And without adding some asterisk to diminish how we remember it either.

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Do you think your dead relatives are more important than other people’s?

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Dude, not appropriate and totally mischaracterizes what @DrewC said. He pointed out all of the reasons that it is important to remember the holocaust. Where, in any of what he said, did he say not to remember the deaths of others? Oh, that, right, he didn’t. He also pointed out all the reasons he doesn’t agree with many current stances of the Israeli government, something I, also Jewish, also do not agree with.

So, how about you just answer this question: Is the holocaust an important, factual event that should be remembered? (note: It’s a yes or no questions, so stop trying to change the questions to one of relative importance)

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Did I ever say they were? Jesus… if you want to commemorate other atrocities and genocides, no one is stopping you! One of the reasons I don’t care for Turkey is that they refuse to admit their culpability in the Armenian genocide. But were other genocides even mentioned in the article? Nope. So you’re the one pushing a BS straw man argument here.

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