The Immaturity of the DPP

Time and time again, I read about things that the DPP are doing, and it just angers me by how immature and juvenile they can be. Here are some examples of what really has me frustrated with:

(1) Signing agreements with China - if Taiwan is truly a de facto independent country, than doesn’t it need to behave like one? No country in Asia would isolate themselves from an economic powerhouse like China. In fact, so many countries all over the world are rushing in to invest and profit from it in the past 10 years! I understand not every country has 1,000 missiles pointed at it. But at least there has been progress with peace in the Taiwan Strait over the past year. Heck, it’s got the United States more relieved. Taiwan also needs to understand that in order to survive in this increasingly globalized world, they need to at least open themselves to business in and from China. How in the world would doing that be a “concession of sovereignty”?

(2) So-called human rights violations - Can the DPP just STOP complaining about everything as a “violation of human rights”? So they take away Chen Shui Bian’s TV and radio because of his constant fasting…is that REALLY a violation of human rights? It’s such a trivial matter, and the DPP are jumping all over that as if it’s like they’re torturing him or something. For crying out loud, the man is indicted and accused of laundering millions of US dollars from the country he swore to protect and serve!

(3) Signing the UN rights covenant - can someone explain to me how adhering to international UN standards for protesting is a violation of human rights? How seriously does the DPP want the world to view Taiwan?

(4) DPP locking themselves inside meeting room - juvenile, immature, and incomprehensible. I couldn’t believe what I was reading when I saw the articles about this. How can Taiwanese people ever trust a party like this to run their country?

In the end, I love how the DPP stands for democracy and its progression in Taiwan. I love democracy, but for Pete’s sake, be a little bit more intelligent and open to how the world works. It really seems like all that the DPP cares about is stirring up chaos and disorder in society.

And you are telling us why?

We all know the DPP’s immature. So were you at age twelve to twenty, and just as idealistic.

And forget not that they tried to sign agreements with China, but were not allowed to by China refusing to deal with them as a sovereign state. Not that stopped the KMT, who are just signing deals with China from the position of a province…

I guess I’m just venting about all these things that I’ve been reading about. I’m wondering if there’s anyone who has an alternative perspective…or does everyone feel the same way about the DPP on these forums?

No Asian nation would also allow themselves to be bullied into signing agreements that only served to increase their reliance on China, whilst China blocked them from signing similar agreements with their neighbours. The DPP have a sensible position that it’s plain dumb to become totally reliant on China.

Easier business with China is good, providing that it doesn’t disproportionately favour China and that Taiwan is able to expand its business with other countries. Not just out of the fear that China might try to bully Taiwan by threatening economic sanctions but that China will eventually have a proper recession of its own, and it is in Taiwan’s interests to insulate itself from that event by having as many customers as possible.

No properly-managed company would put its eggs all in one basket, no country with sane leaders would do that - why should Taiwan?

The US government is hoping the Taiwan problem will go away - it would probably be relieved if Taiwan voted for unification tomorrow, the KMT having lined the polling booths with soldiers to “help” voters make their “choice”.

Those people who actually are interested in Taiwan, other than as a means of increasing their consulting companies’ business in China by saying how wonderful everything will be after unification, are glad that things are quieter but similarly push for the US to support Taiwan given that might change.

Is fasting illegal? No. It just makes the authorities uncomfortable. People can have privileges taken away if they do something against the rules - they shouldn’t be curtailed because he refuses to act like a whipped dog.

Furthermore I thought he had his visits taken away from him too.

So being accused of a crime is sufficient to warrant poor treatment? It’s easy to say that when it’s someone else, but if you accept such behaviour then no one will complain if you or someone close to you is similarly charged (not convicted) and then given a rough time.

I haven’t heard about this. If you’ve read about it that surely means you’ve read why they’ve opposed it?

Taiwanese trusted the KMT to run Taiwan, despite the fact that they have connections to gangsters, members have incited others to commit GBH (like when that policeman was run over), stole upwards of half a billion US$ from the country, candidates and politicians have been convicted of various crimes, etc. There isn’t much choice in Taiwan - they can’t just vote for 100 years of glorious KMT dictatorship.

Do you really think that, or are you being as immature as you accuse the DPP of being because you’re annoyed?

If you stop and think the party has had a pretty horrible history. It was born in an era of repression where it had to fight just to exist. It had to build up a support-base in terms of voters, members, candidates and financial backers from nothing. Then, even when it was allowed to operate, it found it hard to change things. In government it never had a legislative majority and found even reasonable proposals shot down by the KMT and PFP because they sought to level out the playing field, removed an advantage for their political opponents or otherwise made the DPP look good, which couldn’t be allowed to happen lest the public think they could do something right.

In contrast the KMT today is the rich-bitch-child of Taiwanese politics. It has done nothing to make itself wealthy, merely inherited vast sums that were appropriated when it ran everything. It has always been able to distribute favours because it has been out of power for such a small amount of time, and even then still had enough influence to help out those who could scratch its back in another way. The system has long been stacked in its favour in just about every field of life. Even when it lost control of the government it was able to stitch up the DPP repeatedly in the legislative, regardless of whether it was good or bad for the country. Its overseas connections with the CCP and Washington elites meant that it could undermine the DPP’s foreign policy.

So, yes, when the KMT has had it so easy, it’s not a problem for it to remain calm and dignified. The really telling thing is that despite all the privilege and power the KMT has, it still has acted immaturely and destructively itself when it doesn’t get its way. You can understand when a poor kid knocks over a desk because the parent of someone who doesn’t like him uses their position on a university board to block that kid’s entry, but when a wealthy brat kicks her driver because he’s taking a public holiday off when she wants to be driven down to the beach it’s something quite different.

Not to suggest that the DPP is always justified and the KMT never, but if they were people they’d have had completely different lives up until now and therefore their actions should be seen differently. The DPP does need to change its ways in some respects, but until the level field is properly levelled (or it obtains majority government so it can conduct reforms itself) I’ll feel more sympathetic towards it than I will be criticising it.

[quote=“leyown”]Time and time again, I read about things that the DPP are doing, and it just angers me by how immature and juvenile they can be. Here are some examples of what really has me frustrated with:

(1) Signing agreements with China - if Taiwan is truly a de facto independent country, than doesn’t it need to behave like one? No country in Asia would isolate themselves from an economic powerhouse like China. In fact, so many countries all over the world are rushing in to invest and profit from it in the past 10 years! I understand not every country has 1,000 missiles pointed at it. But at least there has been progress with peace in the Taiwan Strait over the past year. Heck, it’s got the United States more relieved. Taiwan also needs to understand that in order to survive in this increasingly globalized world, they need to at least open themselves to business in and from China. How in the world would doing that be a “concession of sovereignty”? [/quote]

But is Ma signing them as a sovereign country OR is he playing toady to China. Unlike the other countries that signs agreements with China, China actually claims Taiwan as its own territory. None of the other countries has that hanging over their heads.

You call keeping Chen in jail for weeks without charge not a “violation of human rights?” You call the way the demonstrations were handled by the police not a violation of human rights? Heck, even yesterday when Ma signed the UN Convenents, the basic right to protest was being abridged. Now, they are ready to pass a new law that would give the police the right to break up a demonstration on very weak pretenses.

Who is complaining about this?

This is the one thing I agree with you on.

I don’t know how long you have been here, but the KMT is the party of violence here. I love how they talk about the need to maintain order and that is even more important than the freedom of speech according to a recent China Post editorial, but conveniently forget the mayhem that they caused five years ago in the aftermath of another lost election and when their lackey Shih Ming-teh demonstrated for weeks calling for Chen to be “deposed” as if he were some unelected dictator or something.

Are they really putting all their eggs in one basket and over-relying on China? Many countries are investing in China, so why not Taiwan? You say Taiwan is being bullied into this agreement by China. I’m wondering if it’s just the result of changing times and globalization. There’s that ASEA-1 (or something, I forget what it was called) pact that’s being signed by many major Asian countries (including South Korea and Japan and China) in order to allow free trade in the region. How can Taiwan not sign that EFCA agreement and face the possibility of being marginalized?

I understand the criticism that many Taiwanese companies are expanding and moving to China, but at the same time, agreements were reached about China investing in companies in Taiwan. Could the relationship begin to tilt towards being more proportionate as Chinese investment in Taiwan come in?

Could be true, but I’ve read otherwise that some camps in the US government do not like the idea of reunification with China. Wouldn’t the US and Japan want China to stay divided rather than have it annex territory by territory and add more to its power?

Of course fasting isn’t illegal, but Chen has been fasting to the point of killing himself (despite his already poor health conditions and repeated visits to the hospital). I’d say they are supporting human rights by trying to prevent the guy from starving himself to death. In terms of visitation rights, DPP chairwoman Tsai Ing-Wen and some others were able to visit him on Friday.

I wouldn’t call taking an indicted man’s TV and radio away poor treatment nor a violation of human rights.

That’s true, and they have 1,000 missiles pointing at them. But what would you guys propose as an alternative to the situation at hand? Wouldn’t Taiwan be marginalized and its economy suffer even more than it is after that ASEA-1 (or whatever it’s called) pact is signed between major Asian countries?

Without charge? Isn’t he charged for corruption, bribery, and other such crimes? I think in the United States, people charged for crimes are kept in detention facilities and jails until proven guilty. No one cries “violation of human rights” when the accused are detained.

I will give you that. That was definitely some pretty bad stuff from the police force. I think something of that magnitude obviously warrants “human rights violation”, but definitely not keeping an indicted man in jail and taking away his TV/radio for abusing his own body.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t United Nations Covenants considered international standards for human rights? Doesn’t signing the UN Covenants mean that Taiwan acknowledges UN human rights standards? This sounded like a good thing to me. It’s not like people’s right to protest are completely stripped away.

People were protesting the signing of the UN Covenants. I’ll try to find the article later.

To be honest, I haven’t been here for too long. I know there’s a huge history with the KMT and the injustice of their reign when they took over Taiwan (not much different than that big country on the other side of the Strait committing similar atrocities). I know there is a lot of bad blood against the KMT for what was done in the past.

But would you say that the KMT today the same as the KMT of the past? Have they not progressed democratically at all for the past 50 years?

I wouldn’t really call “kow-towing” to China as progress.

[quote=“leyown”]

Without charge? Isn’t he charged for corruption, bribery, and other such crimes? I think in the United States, people charged for crimes are kept in detention facilities and jails until proven guilty. No one cries “violation of human rights” when the accused are detained. [/quote]

The detention began weeks prior to charges being filed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t United Nations Covenants considered international standards for human rights? Doesn’t signing the UN Covenants mean that Taiwan acknowledges UN human rights standards? This sounded like a good thing to me. It’s not like people’s right to protest are completely stripped away. [/quote]

Those rights are being curtailed and signature to UN convenants has no force of law in Taiwan as Taiwan is not technically a party to such convenants.

People were protesting the signing of the UN Covenants. I’ll try to find the article later.[/quote]

I think people were protesting the new Assembly Acts. That is what I picked up in the Chinese language newspaper I was reading yesterday.

To be honest, I haven’t been here for too long. I know there’s a huge history with the KMT and the injustice of their reign when they took over Taiwan (not much different than that big country on the other side of the Strait committing similar atrocities). I know there is a lot of bad blood against the KMT for what was done in the past.

But would you say that the KMT today the same as the KMT of the past? Have they not progressed democratically at all for the past 50 years?[/quote]

Based on their recent behavior (last five years), I would say they have not progressed enough.

Are they really putting all their eggs in one basket and over-relying on China? Many countries are investing in China, so why not Taiwan?[/quote]

You clearly didn’t understand my point, so I’ll say it again.

Other countries are able to sign free trade agreements with any country. China ensures that Taiwan can only sign them with piss-poor countries. Ergo other countries can spread their risk even if they make agreements with China. If Taiwan does it’s putting all its eggs in one basket because it can’t get similar deals with other nations.

Is that clearer?

Or Chinese investment could buy China direct influence in Taiwanese affairs. It depends how much money comes into Taiwan and where it goes.

Could be true, but I’ve read otherwise that some camps in the US government do not like the idea of reunification with China. Wouldn’t the US and Japan want China to stay divided rather than have it annex territory by territory and add more to its power?[/quote]

Japan is hindered by its own self-imposed restrictions on arms sales and defence. It’s too late for it to try to intervene directly. As for the US, the State Department holds the real power in this and it has been pro-China for God-knows how long. Any “anti-unification camp” in the US government holds next-to-no influence, and Obama has no balls so won’t interfere.

Rubbish! How the fuck do you stop someone from fasting themselves to death by taking away their privileges?! Besides, it’s Chen’s choice if he lives or dies.

taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003443737

Chen’s punishment — stripping him of his visitation privileges one time and not allowing him out of his cell three times, as well as confiscating his TV and radio

It wasn’t just taking away his TV and radio. Even doing things like that once/three times is wrong.

See above.

It’s Pan-Blue propaganda that Taiwan has to sign an agreement with China now-now-now. ASEAN agreements won’t kick in immediately. The US-Korea FTA is stalled in Congress. There is plenty of time for Taiwan to negotiate with China.

Furthermore, what I would do is say to China that if it wanted an agreement, which EVERYONE says it does because it sees it as a step on the road to unification, then it would have to drop its opposition to Taiwan signing FTAs with other countries. Indeed I would insist there could be no wide-ranging agreement (maybe something uncontroversial before) until a FTA had been signed with another trade partner, such as Singapore, Japan or the US.

If China doesn’t want Taiwan to be 100% reliant on it, it would do everything it could to make the other FTA happen. If it continued to block Taiwan signing FTAs it would show its intentions were malicious and therefore anything would be better than giving it such economic influence over Taiwan.

Finally, Taiwan’s main trade partners are (according to the CIA World Factbook, 2007):

China 32.6%, US 12.9%, Hong Kong 8.6%, Japan 6.4%, Singapore 5%

How is an ASEAN+1 trade deal going to fuck that up? Who are the ASEAN states that directly compete with Taiwan, in what sectors, etc?

Dude, signing a covenant means nothing. Do you know how many repressive countries have signed UN human rights covenants? Does it make a single bit of fucking difference? No.

Look at the actual laws that the KMT are passing - actions speak louder than words.

Progression is insufficient if you still undermine the democratic system. It’s like slapping a murderer on the back because he’s no longer a serial killer.

Taiwan is one of the biggest investor in China in real dollars. Investment under the DPP soared and many regulations were relaxed. Not enough or fast enough for some, but that is another story.

If you don’t know just how big of an investor Taiwan is already in China, how dependent our economy has become in the past 8 years, and how that investment and dependency grew under the DPP then it is not suprising how confused you are at this moment. Go read a book.

The problem now is that while yes there are many progressive elements in the KMT, the people controlling the cross strait issues are all unelected, unaccounatble members who were all on the wrong side of the Martial Law era. I’m talking about bastards like Lien Chan who were rejected by voters every time they tried to win office yet are now controlling our future with respect to China.

I guess by saying so, you made me laughed a bit.

if the world feels the same way as it is. Taiwan is officially fucked

leyown:

I have a couple of excellent Taiwan News editorials on the problems that Taiwan faces because the KMT negotiators are selling out Taiwan.

Remember the near term goal of China isn’t to annex Taiwan, it is to move into the cross strait markets that Taiwan controls and evict Taiwanese players there. Taiwan News recently noted:

[ul]For example, ARATS turned down various requests by the SEF side, such as Taipei’s plea to increase the flights for Taiwan airlines in “golden routes” such as between Taipei and Shanghai and instead graciously expanded flights between Taipei and “hot spots” like Nanchang and Hefei instead and added northward routes that passed only through PRC air control zones to emphasize the “domestic” character of cross-strait air routes.

Moreover, in response to the KMT government’s urgency to initiate talks on a cross-strait economic cooperation framework agreement (ECFA), the Beijing side excluded the ECFA from discussion for the fourth Chiang-Chen “negotiations,” evidently pending the offer of further concessions by the Taipei side.

Last but not least, the PRC side showed that it treated the SEF-ARATS talks as “normal negotiations” by leaking a draft but unsigned set of agreements to the official Xinhua News Agency and thus forcing the Taiwan negotiators to sign Beijing’s version or threaten not to sign the agreements, a risk that the KMT side lacked the political courage to take.[/ul]

Similarly, in another article it added:

[ul]For example, the touted “breakthrough” agreements that opened direct cross-strait commercial marine and air links both denigrated Taiwan’s status by treating such routes as “domestic” through the exclusion of foreign carriers and thus also harmed Taiwan commercial interests by excluding the vast majority of Taiwan-owned ships which fly foreign flags of convenience and by refusing to extend “fifth freedom” or onward passage rights for even Taiwan airlines.

For example, the failure to include onward flight rights in the new pact will reduce Taiwan into a “commercial air dependency” of the PRC, whose airports will gain control over the lion’s share of lucrative “hub” onward connections. Given the widespread claim that Taiwan is rich in capital but short on “investment opportunities” (at least for myopic Taiwan investors), the influx of PRC state-owned companies, with the assistance of local proxies, will be able to use the maximum of 30 percent ownership to secure effective managerial control over Taiwan companies and their technology or knowhow in most economic fields, including telecommunications and news media, snare public works contracts and channels for patronage, and, with investments in hotels and travel companies, secure control over the bulk of renminbi spent in Taiwan by Chinese tourists.[/ul]

China also ejected Taiwanese ships from the all-important gravel shipping market and restricted cross strait shipping from Taiwan to Taiwan flagged ships – most Taiwanese shippers use third nation flags of convenience. The purpose of that move is to block Taiwanese shippers from that market. As I recall PRC tourists may only fly PRC aircraft to Taiwan.

The links are on my blog:

michaelturton.blogspot.com/2009/ … s-and.html

To the KMT Old Guard elites the island is just an asset to be used in bargaining for places for them and their families in the new PRC-run Asian political order, and within China itself. They could care less about Taiwan, which they have always hated and despised.

Crystal ball: Computex will have some interesting pro-China changes this year, following this pattern.

Vorkosigan

There are many threads on the KMT and the worrying trends resulting from the current administration. To me, this situation demands, now more than ever, an effective, focused and competent opposition party, and it’s frustrating to see the DPP wasting time with some of its pettier actions, like locking meeting room doors and criticizing the WHA entry. What Tsai needs to do to effectively reform the party is get rid of certain influences within the party and take control, give it a new image and a clear, convincing message that can sway public opinion. So far, it seems that isn’t happening, but I hope it does. Taiwan, like every other nation, needs an effective opposition party within the government. They need to present themselves as something other than “another kind of craziness,” as all parties here have done for decades.

But in the DPPs case that could take DECADES! :laughing:
The funniest thing is, many people gave them a lot of leeway when the DPP were in power because “oh, they’ve only ever been an opposition party. It’ll take time for them to figure out to govern.”
Now they’re back in the opposition again, and guess what? It’s excruciatingly obvious that their role is yet again utterly and completely beyond their comprehension.
They simply cannot DO it. ANY of it. :laughing:
The really scary part is that contrary to appearances, some of the top party leadership have actually experienced tertiary education!

[quote=“Poagao”]There are many threads on the KMT and the worrying trends resulting from the current administration. To me, this situation demands, now more than ever, an effective, focused and competent opposition party, and it’s frustrating to see the DPP wasting time with some of its pettier actions, like locking meeting room doors and criticizing the WHA entry. What Tsai needs to do to effectively reform the party is get rid of certain influences within the party and take control, give it a new image and a clear, convincing message that can sway public opinion. So far, it seems that isn’t happening, but I hope it does. Taiwan, like every other nation, needs an effective opposition party within the government. They need to present themselves as something other than “another kind of craziness,” as all parties here have done for decades.[/quote] Good post - well stated! I agree. :thumbsup:

What Tsai needs to do is to move DPP toward the middle and get rid of the hard-core TI’ers.

I have a very good opinion of Tsai, and had high hopes for the DPP developing into a responsible, moderate, credible, constructively purposeful and electable party under her leadership. But so far, it’s been very disappointing: the Chenists and other squabbling, screeching, anti-this, anti-that and anti-everything just for the sake of it, undisciplined, politically inept, economically clueless, directionless, blinkered, and otherwise hopelessly out-of-touch-with-reality factions, coteries, self-servers and self-aggrandizers still seem to be in control of the party, and are steadily dragging poor Tsai down to their level of pathetic, posturing idiocy.

It’s hard to believe, but they’re performing every bit as badly, and in many ways even worse, than the KMT did in opposition, and are handing the high ground to their opponents on a plate.

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]I have a very good opinion of Tsai, and had high hopes for the DPP developing into a responsible, moderate, credible, constructively purposeful and electable party under her leadership. But so far, it’s been very disappointing: the Chenists and other squabbling, screeching, anti-this, anti-that and anti-everything just for the sake of it, undisciplined, politically inept, economically clueless, directionless, blinkered, and otherwise hopelessly out-of-touch-with-reality factions, coteries, self-servers and self-aggrandizers still seem to be in control of the party, and are steadily dragging poor Tsai down to their level of pathetic, posturing idiocy.

It’s hard to believe, but they’re performing every bit as badly, and in many ways even worse, than the KMT did in opposition, and are handing the high ground to their opponents on a plate.[/quote]

I like Tsai too, but your litany of problems is the same in the KMT plus, authoritarianism and murder. There’s hardly anyone more self aggrandizing than the Old Guard who are cheerfully selling out Taiwan in order to gain leverage in China, and nothing the DPP can do can ever match that. The difference between the two isn’t skill, but the fact that the KMT can paper over its inanity with its massive amounts of money, control of the bureacracy, police, and judicial system, and the all important control of the media. You only need look at the fact that not a single dollar in Chen’s possession has been shown to be anything other than a political donation, while Ma actually downloaded government funds into his private accounts. One is president and the other is in detention. That has nothing to do with the way the system favors the KMT, of course. Too, everyone has forgotten the incredible incompetence of the KMT in running Taiwan in the 1950s - 1980s, a period now shrouded in party-manufactured myth – and they tend to forget, thanks to the media, the numerous outstanding examples of KMT incompetence – the DPP has never done anything as outstandingly stupid as blown a 20 point lead in a presidential campaign or run in 2004 for President the candidate that it complained LTH had foisted on them to make them loose in 2000: Lien Chan (as an aside, thank god for KMT incompetence – a politically savvy KMT would let Chen run free to shoot of his mouth and make trouble for the DPP). The DPP may have pissed off George Bush but it never committed political assassinations on US territory or attempted to steal US weaponry from US arms dumps, etc. DPP gross errors tend to arise from it outsmarting itself, like the missed opportunity in the legislative elections in 2004 – thank you, Chen Shui-bian.

That said, the real problems with the DPP don’t lie in its people, but in its structure – the total lack of a local presence in every community, the lack of a Youth Training program, the preponderance of lawyers and ABCs with useless degrees instead of voter mobilization geeks, election number crunchers, and savvy ad people, etc. There seems to be the feeling that if we just get the right message, everyone will come out in droves to vote for us. I get no sense from the DPP that it has any clue about how to run campaigns – Frank Hsieh’s presidential campaign was the worst ever – and yet it ran two good ones in 2000 and 2004. In both the foreign and local communities, there is too much focus on the leader and not enough on structure. The DPP would face the same problems regardless of which person ran the show.

Another problem Tsai faces is her base: it doesn’t kick in and it doesn’t volunteer. I know piles of Deep Greens who don’t give a penny to the party. When my wife told her father that she was joining the DPP, he almost crapped himself – “What? You have to pay $300 NT to do that!” Her base is stingy and as a result the DPP lacks resources and/or volunteers. It doesn’t seem to grasp that it needs to find new ways to mobilize Taiwanese. I was encouraged to note, though, that Tsai is collecting donations from the grass roots in the US when she was there this month. Maybe they can begin a whole new campaign here…

Tsai faces many problems at this juncture. It would help a lot if the foreign community stopped repeating KMT propaganda as if it were analysis, and thought in a more clear-headed way about the current situation.

Vorkosigan

"That said, the real problems with the DPP don’t lie in its people, but in its structure – the total lack of a local presence in every community, the lack of a Youth Training program, the preponderance of lawyers and ABCs with useless degrees instead of voter mobilization geeks, election number crunchers, and savvy ad people, etc.
There seems to be the feeling that if we just get the right message, everyone will come out in droves to vote for us.
"

Uhh…OK… :whistle:

Maybe ACORN can get a branch office over here for ya.

“Tsai faces many problems at this juncture. It would help a lot if the foreign community stopped repeating KMT propaganda as if it were analysis, and thought in a more clear-headed way about the current situation.”
How many votes does the “foreign community” add to the Taiwan ballot count…for either party?
Isn’t there a rule/law about “foreign community” interference on island politics? Of course there are many ‘laws’ here with little enforcement, so this does provide some leeway for interlopers.

And Tsai has basically imploded under the pressure. She is a liability to the DPP at this point. Well, she has been for the last 4 months or so.

It would also probably help if the foreign community stopped repeating DPP propaganda as if it were analysis. :laughing:
Anyway, I thought the majority of the (completely disenfranchised and therefore not even close to being even under the radar) foreign community were staunchly pro-green.
I always thought that those of us with the power of rational thought were a tiny minority among the non-voting, totally unimportant foreign community.