The Mind boggles: Ex-DPP chair for unification, admires Deng

ac, you are very confused about what an ethnic turncoat is. An ethnic turncoat would be someone who wants to sell out their people to another country, as Xu wants to sell out the Taiwanese to the Chinese.

I see your evidence about Lee being a Japanese house slave is mounting (not). Now, not only did he say that Japanese territory, shoudl be Japanese, but he also met the Dalai Lama. Wow! :loco:

Brian

The leader of a country which for the most part legally holds Tibet as part of his own country decides to meet with a formal armed rebel leader and slave owner to discuss how they can further smear the concept of China, it a ethnic turn coat.

Taiwan culture is a Chinese culture. Like HK is a Chinese Culture.

Acemdemics even define Japanese, Korean, and Vietnam culture as a derivation of Chinese Culture.

Suggesting giving up on the terroritorial conflict over Diaoyutai is also a sign of being an ethnic turn coat. His untrustworthiness is the main reason the TSU doesn’t even want him.

All of N and S America, Europe, the middle East, South Asia, Australasia and anything else I missed are also Chinese. Any attempts by splittist and terrorist elements to separate these areas from the motherland have hurt the feelings of the Chinese people and will be dealt with harshly. :wink: :wink:

Refusing to do China`s dirty work hardly makes any Taiwanese a traitor of any kind.

Special wonton soup for all those that disagree. :smiling_imp:

LTH took an oath to defend ROC when he took office. Not sell it off piecemeal. For that alone he will never be looked upon fondly in history.

Agreed, the green-traitors are out to destroy the RoC peice by peice, and such sedition cannot be tolerated. In any case, at least the RoC still remains steadfast in its claims of the Spratley islands and still holds the largest island in the chain. Apparently even the Taidu traitors are loathe to give up anything (except to their ideological Japanese rightist masters)that they could keep their perfidious little hands on. (note National Palace Museum artifacts)

And AC, one should know that oathes hardly mean anything to LTH. Afterall being the pawn of the Japanese imperialists didn’t stop him from joining the communists. Being sworn to the communist party didn’t stop him from betraying his comrades to the Nationalists. Being a Nationalists didn’t stop him from again betraying China.

Could you 2 losers please stop jerking off and try to stay on topic?

Please. Start your own threads on President Lee.

An ethic turn coat eh??? That kind of language wouldve made Hitler or that loony governor of Tokyo blush. LTH is Taiwanese and annexing islands for a govt in exile which has never held the sovereignty of Taiwan is utter nonsense. FYI, the Dalai Lama is considered a patriot and the true leader of their nation by a good number of Tibetans. Also, many Tibetans consider their colonial governors from Beijing the real slave masters.

I was unaware you were a trained psychiatrist. Whats Lien Chan, Elmer Fung and James Soongs excuse then. Oh wait that was a foolish question when everyone knows it is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Who became president of ROC and should be promoting ROC interest in Diaoyutai, not promoting some Taidu politics.

Yes I’m sure there are some misguided Blacks in the USA yearning for the days of slavery as well.

Show me some impartial 3rd party source to back this claim. For the most part it has been the PRC that has single handedly try to modernize and develop that backward province for the past 40 years.

Find me proof where any of these guys try to disprove the existance of ROC or claim not to Chinese to forward their desire for more political power on Taiwan.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Who became president of ROC and should be promoting ROC interest in Diaoyutai, not promoting some Taidu politics.[/quote]

He was good enough when he was president, right?

Also… The ROC has no legal claim on the Senkaku islands. End of story. If the PRC was so irate about the matter, a few of their sovremmy class destroyers should be sent out… would be fun to see them sink.

Yes I’m sure there are some misguided Blacks in the USA yearning for the days of slavery as well. [/quote]

Christ… What’s the meaning of this… If say France had “liberated” the blacks in the south, bumped half of them off, and killed most of the whites regardless of whether they had owned slaves or not, your comparision would have been roughtly acceptable.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Show me some impartial 3rd party source to back this claim. For the most part it has been the PRC that has single handedly try to modernize and develop that backward province for the past 40 years.[/quote]

Hmmm… Try a stroll thru the old tibetan part of Lhasa… But you better hurry up as it’s being demolished.

Find me proof where any of these guys try to disprove the existance of ROC or claim not to Chinese to forward their desire for more political power on Taiwan.[/quote]

Well, Elmer Feng is a suspected rapist… Wonder what motivates him?

Lian Zhan is busy embezzling funds from the KMT, and james Soong will surely go to jail, once him and friends lose their LY majority. Lee Denghui at least tried to create a democracy here… and he deserves every kudo for this. Wonder if you know that mr. American… Read your constitution and try to apply what it tell you here in Asia.

Just as ac_drivel is hung-up on the ‘us and them’ mentality of “if you are not in favour of Taiwan’s unification with the PRC, then you must be a Taidu extremist”, so he is also saying “if you don’t believe that Taiwan is part of China, then you must be a Japanese house-slave”.

Sure, Lee put the interests of Taiwan before the interests of China. I believe that is only natural for a good president, but looking through the warped PRC ideological framework that ac subscribes too, this makes him an ethnic turncoat. OK, you’re consistent in your beliefs (however abhorrent they may be). But, even if we take this point of view - being ‘anti-China’ does not make you a Japanese house slave.

Ac, having absolutley no evidence, or logical argument, for his wild accusations about Lee being a puppet of the Japanese, attempts to ignore the argument and turn it into accusations that (being pro-Taiwan, rather than pro-China) is an ethnic traitor.

Once again, ac shows himself utterly incpable of (and unwilling to) hold a reasoned argument. I suspect the reason is that his beliefs fall apart all too easily when subjected to logical debate.

Brian

ac_liar is nothing but a pan-blue pro-china extremist. We should just ignore his racist comments and move on towards glorious independence!

There are already several threads dealing with the Tibet issue. I’m not sure what if anything could qualify as an “objective” source, but tibet.ca/en gives news stories of all political stripes (though hosted by pro-Tibet people). Or better yet, talk to some of the few thousand Tibetans living in Taiwan, and ask them what they think of the Dalai Lama and the Tibet / China issue. Does that approach strike you as fair, a.c.?

Screaming Jesus,

Do you really think a God King can bring democracy and human rights to former serfs. Or even deal with multinational economic issues or the military threat of 3 nuclear neighbors. I don’t think so.

Masaotakashi,

I’m sure that what LTH would advocate everyone adopting a Japanese name like himself to declare independence.

Bu Lai En,

He never put ROC interest infront of PRC. He put is own interest infront of welfare of everyone on ROC.

How is his Taidu aspirations any benefit to ROC relationship with PRC, which is fundimental to the economic well being of ROC, not to mention miltiary stability.

In comparision to Hsu position, isn’t it easier for politicians to start any constructive dialogue with PRC, which acknowledges the fundimental importance of PRC to ROC.

As oppose to Taidu platform, especially LTH version of Taidu, which advocates that ROC doesn’t even exist and openly wants PRC to be divided into 7 nation states.

Mr He,

PRC has already permitted civil demostrators to land on Diaoyutai in protest.

If the people ROC had the same LP as the people of PRC, we should be doing the same.

Find me one Tibetian of the serf lineage that attends Beijing University or Fudan University that advocates the return to a backward illiterate society of God Kings and I might reconsider my position. But every Tibetian I have ever met, who have acquired the tools to socially advance in China, don’t advocate going backwards in society.

Just like most modern Chinese don’t advocate foot binding anymore, yern to see achitecture from the Q’ing Dynasty, or the return of an emperor.

That was CJG who set the foundation for a democracy. LTH was another pawn in his vision. Selected because he was precieved as a BSR and also because he had no child. LTH was predestine to step down from office and leave no heir.

Too bad there are no more visionary people in Taiwan to get it past the next hurdle of the eventual PRC conflict.

As far as I know there’s no law against Taiwanese sailing to the Senkaku islands. Actually a few of them have done so, along with the HK and Chinese protesters in 1996.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Screaming Jesus,

Do you really think a God King can bring democracy and human rights to former serfs. Or even deal with multinational economic issues or the military threat of 3 nuclear neighbors. I don’t think so.

Masaotakashi,

I’m sure that what LTH would advocate everyone adopting a Japanese name like himself to declare independence.

Bu Lai En,

He never put ROC interest infront of PRC. He put is own interest infront of welfare of everyone on ROC.

How is his Taidu aspirations any benefit to ROC relationship with PRC, which is fundimental to the economic well being of ROC, not to mention miltiary stability.

In comparision to Hsu position, isn’t it easier for politicians to start any constructive dialogue with PRC, which acknowledges the fundimental importance of PRC to ROC.

As oppose to Taidu platform, especially LTH version of Taidu, which advocates that ROC doesn’t even exist and openly wants PRC to be divided into 7 nation states.

Mr He,

PRC has already permitted civil demostrators to land on Diaoyutai in protest.

If the people ROC had the same LP as the people of PRC, we should be doing the same.

Find me one Tibetian of the serf lineage that attends Beijing University or Fudan University that advocates the return to a backward illiterate society of God Kings and I might reconsider my position. But every Tibetian I have ever met, who have acquired the tools to socially advance in China, don’t advocate going backwards in society.

Just like most modern Chinese don’t advocate foot binding anymore, yern to see achitecture from the Q’ing Dynasty, or the return of an emperor.

That was CJG who set the foundation for a democracy. LTH was another pawn in his vision. Selected because he was precieved as a BSR and also because he had no child. LTH was predestine to step down from office and leave no heir.

Too bad there are no more visionary people in Taiwan to get it past the next hurdle of the eventual PRC conflict.[/quote]

AC,

Your post just shook the whole island up! What’s up with that? About a 4 on the richter?

"God-king’ or no (what’s the Tibetan word for that?), the Dalai Lama’s proposals seem to me–and I suspect, to most Tibetans–to offer the most credible prospect for bringing democracy and human rights to Tibet. The major obstacle is that the Chinese government doesn’t want that. Hell, they don’t even want it in Hong Kong.

As for the nuclear neighbors, their conflict is with each other rather than Tibet. The DL has urged that Tibet be made a “zone of peace,” but would surely accept a Chinese military presence if that were a part of a deal. Again, the sticking point is that China doesn’t particularly care what the Tibetan people want. Or the Taiwanese, for that matter.

So, Tibetan autonomy necessarily entails a return to serfdom, a rise in illiteracy, and some sort of backwards evolution? (As if Chinese society were superior to Tibet’s.) I suspect you would get a different response from Tibetans who didn’t have to be afraid of you turning them in to the government.

dkon mchog rgyal po

To be honest I have no clue what the Dali Lama stands for now. In his lastest public appearance he has renounced all political aggenda for the Tibetan people, and just wants to enter the PRC.

My whole contention is what is LTH doing trying to meet the Dali Lama. LTH at the time was the president of ROC, which constitutionally still has soveriegnty over Tibet. How does meeting the Dali Lama help the ROC and its attempt to reduce tension across the strait?

What about the interest of ROC? ROC was investing heavily in PRC. Were all the Taishang suppose to roll over to LTH taidu fantasy.

What did ROC gain supporting the flip flopper, Dali “waffle” Lama? He seems all to eager to please PRC before he dies.

Hsu has the right position. There is no point ignoring or denying the fact PRC is fundimental to the development and continued success of the ROC. Only through a moderate approach can there be a constructive dialogue. The extreme positions that the Dali Lama use to support, and that LTH continues to support, are no longer productive.

dkon mchog means “jewel” (like, the 3 jewels or triratna). rgyal bo does mean “king” (or arguably, “emperor”) but is not used of the Dalai Lama, except perhaps as an honorific. The Dalai Lama is said to be an emanation of the bodhisattva avalokiteshvara. “God-king” I think got into English on analogy with ancient Egypt and its “God-emperors.”

I believe what the Dalai Lama is attempting is called a compromise. The idea is that he and China would both make concessions. So far China has not reciprocated, but seems to want him to basically concede everything in advance of negotiations. On the other side of the political spectrum, many young Tibetans feel that anything short of independence would be a sell-out.

If you think that Tibetans are pleased to be under Chinese control, then surely you would support free elections there to decide that question–putting the issue to rest once and for all. No?

I suppose that Lee Deng-hui and the Dalai Lama felt that their international situations had something in common. A common enemy, perhaps.

But the Dali Lama is trying to compromise with no leverage. The Tibetan government in exile is what ROC will be like in about 10 to 20 years, unless something drastic happens. ROC is slowly losing all political leverage to negotiate a compromise across the Strait.

PRC has every right to secure their territorial integrity like any other State on the planet. Did the USA just let the Confederate States go independent? Any strong central government would not let nations-states form within their boarders. Only when a State central government is weak will it allow nation-state within its boarder form.

Perhaps LTH felt there was some advantage to slight PRC with an invitation to Dali Lama. But ROC government is getting weaker and less influential. And the Tibet government in exile is still in India. PRC government has gotten stronger and more influential, it is hand picking the re-incarnation of Tibetan leaders.

I don’t want to be around when ROC is so weak that PRC is hand picking the provincial leader of Taiwan out of a hat. Hsu has the right idea. We must engage the PRC with a moderate voice, before ROC become irrelevant, and PRC dismisses any attempt by ROC. PRC has already dismissed CSB and LTH.

The Dalai Lama is not to be trusted. Liberalism is all well and good, but it can only end in failure for China. Whether or not the Dalai lama himself is sincerely interested in autonomy rather than independence is irrelevant. His supporters most likely will not be satisified with that and liberalizing Tibet, as witnessed by the 80’s was a mistake. The best way to solve the Tibet question is simply via repression. Retain the low level state suppression and prevent any of the Lamaists infiltrators from entering Tibet. Use demographics as a weapon and relocate immigrants from other sections of China into Tibet. The communists have already been accused of this, but truthfully the state has only had a hand in a relatively minor number of works relocated to Tibet that were more likely than not temporary. Most of the floating immigrant population in the TAR are poorer residents from neighboring Sichuan that have come to the region by their own. Frankly speaking, the CCP should engage in what the Tibetan separatists are already (mistakenly) accusing them of, migrating han immigrants into Tibet. Forced population relocations will solve the Tibet problem in short order. A level of repression prevents any social outbursts and a few hundred thousand han immigrants into the TAR each year would overwhelm the natives within a decade. Considering that the provinces of neighboring Sichuan and Yunnan have enormous populations and are desparately poor, a large scale state orchestrated developement program in Tibet would attract people like flies to honey. After a decade or so when the Tibetan population has been relegated to 20-30% of the entire TAR population, lift the excessive police presence and the problem is solved. One very real problem is afterwards, Tibet could continue to remain a hotbed of social discontent as the Tibetans would perceive (rightfully so) that the Chinese have invaded their home en mass and have changed it. Of course by then it would be too late to affect any change as the Tibetans would be too few to wield any significant political power even in a democratic China. The spectre of ethnic separatism will be dead. Of course, this can be construed as cultural genocide, but it is preferrable to the other alternative, being actual genocide.