The narratives about Trump thread.


#2163

Dead.


#2164

Unfortunately, I remember Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama and Trump. I also remember all the candidates that didn’t make it to the general election.

I get the sense that most successful republican candidates would talk tough against China, and appear pro-Taiwan during the election cycle. H. W. Bush not as much, I suppose because he was the US liaison to China, and China wasn’t as much of a looming threat back then.

However, W. Bush did a lot of calling out China’s bad behaviors during his first presidential campaign, and he won a lot of support from the Taiwanese communities in the US.

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/wspeech.htm

Many republican candidates were also employed this tactic, but their tunes usually change as soon as they are in power. W. Bush became a huge China ass kisser, probably had to since he borrowed so much money from China.

It’s all similar to Republican’s “small government” rhetoric. They keep repeating it, but do exactly the opposite once they are in charge.

So I have no doubt Trump, who only really cares about his ego, has no real vested interest in protecting Taiwan. If talking tough to China earns him ego points, he will do so. If sealing under the table deals with China earns him secret cash, he will do so. If selling out Taiwan’s interest benefits Trump, he won’t even hesitate.

As for the current congress, I think they are just leveraging an existing foreign threat to divert national attention from the US’ current decrepit state.


#2165

I seem to recall that Chen Shui Bian’s penchant for playing up to his base here in Taiwan (with regards the TI issue) was hardly seen as international diplomatic elegance at it’s finest and it was that which caused a cooling off in Bush’s attitude towards Taiwan.

Tsai Ing Wen seems to be doing better, generally keeping the international diplomatic sensitives of TI out of the world news. Even in a more recent case of the Chinese bullying airline companies to change their Taiwan listings to a name of their choice earning the Chinese a rebuke from many and as a tactic I think as long as China is not triggered in the way CSB used to rile them up, its a good one as Trump then is much more able to receive visits, act warmly to Taiwan and provide arms.


#2166

Would you care to point out a couple of things CSB did or said which Tsai is holding back to appease China?

Even if Tsai is as you said holding back from TI positions, China doesn’t seem to care and continues to throw money at Taiwan’s diplomatic friends in hopes of stealing them away, and attempt to curb Taiwan’s international status and participation, such as the airline incident you’ve mentioned…


#2167

Sure, I remember for example Bush and Chen getting into it over a referendum he was planning to hold, 2003 as I recall. Got to the point where Bush sent him a letter and CSB’s response was to basically tell him to piss off. I’m sure that went down as well as a turd in the punch bowl.

There were a bunch of other meaningless virtue signalling to his base stunts that Chen was pulling like his push to join the UN. Meaningless, because China holds veto power as one of the 5 permanent members of the UN, not that it even got there. Want more examples?


#2168

I don’t think pushing for a referendum act and practising it by holding actual referendums are meaningless. The KMT held legislature had made sure any referendum would be meaningless through manipulating the referendum act itself. CSB simply demonstrated that it was pointless and made people aware that the referendum act needs fixing.

Also, UN veto power means nothing. The KMT government also once had that veto power, look where that got them. What’s stopping Taiwan from entering the UN now is China’s actual economic power, and projected military power.


#2169

Now now, play fair, I said the push to join the UN was meaningless, not the referendum or use of a referendum. Bush was basically pleading with Chen not to do this referendum and Chen basically told Bush to fuck off. Do you really think that went down well with Bush?

What do you mean it means nothing, how did CSB expect to get into the UN knowing full well even if a motion was made, which it never happened, China can just veto it and that’s the end of it.

The guy liked to stir the pot and rub China’s nose in it, made his supporters happy, not so much the International crowd. I actually liked him a lot when he was Mayor, locally he was a great politician, Internationally, not so much.


#2170

Pushing for reentering the US is a popular stance here in Taiwan, regardless of partisanship. Even Ma made promises to return to the UN. The only thing people seem to argue about is whether to apply as Taiwan, or apply as ROC. In the current international political climate, both are equally pointless, although the former seem a little less delusional.

As UN’s founding member, KMT’s ROC government still had veto power in 1971, when Resolution 2758 was passed. KMT’s ROC government had only used its veto power once before in 1955 to block Soviet backed Mongolian People’s Republic from entering the UN.


#2171

Do vetos in the UN work in the same way as they work in the Eu? Because the UK’s vetos have been constantly ignored, so…


#2172

Although the “power of veto” is not explicitly mentioned in the UN Charter, the fact that “substantive” decisions by the UNSC require “the concurring votes of the permanent members”, means that any of those permanent members can prevent the adoption, by the Council, of any draft resolutions on “substantive” matters. For this reason, the “power of veto” is also referred to as the principle of “great power unanimity” and the veto itself is sometimes referred to as the “great power veto”

Anyway, the point was that Bush didn’t suddenly change his stance on Taiwan just to suck up to China. Chen Shui Bian liked to play cute, probably was one of his more endearing qualities locally, but internationally frustrated his allies. The most notable being the back and forth he had with Bush regarding the referendum.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/05TAIPEI203_a.html

In the excerpt, Wang
describes a secret visit paid December 1, 2003, by then
U.S. National Security Council Senior Director for
Asian Affairs James Moriarty to President Chen Shui-
bian in which Moriarty handed Chen a letter written by
President George W. Bush expressing his concern about
Taiwan’s referendum plans.

“Moriarty Met With Bian and Said Strong Words; the
[Atmosphere of] U.S.-Taiwan Mutual Trust Suddenly
Changed.
[Moriarty] Handed [Chen] a Letter Written by
Bush, Persuading Taiwan to Stop Holding a Referendum on
`Independence.’ Moriarty and Bian Had a Huge
Discrepancy in Their Perceptions; the Meeting Ended
Unpleasantly, and the U.S-Taiwan Relationship Dropped
to the Freezing Point


#2173

Not like Chen Shui Bian! He turned everything into a circus and knew how to get the most of the media.

Ok, so you want to know some differences between Tsai and CSB? CSB would be flying in the Dali Lama, I think at least twice because he knows that winds up China, and because he could. Tsai is NOT doing that.

CSB would make trips to various countries quite regularly using USA as a stop point, where it appeared the only point to these trips was to bring along members of congress and reporters to make a statement “hey guys look at me, USA lets me transit and make a scene and talk with congress members” rubbing China’s nose in it. By the end of his presidency he was told to transit in Alaska, and only if he had no contact with reporters or anyone else. Tsai is NOT doing any of that.

CSB would love to play games, inviting Chinese leaders to Taiwan, so long as it was on a country to country basis. Something to make international headlines, but an empty invitation as China would never accept meeting with Taiwan on a country to country basis. Tsai is NOT doing that.

What he was doing worked with his base. However China was freaking the fuck out, unlike bullying companies to change the name of Taiwan on websites, which is seen as unprovoked actions, hence aggression on the part of the Chinese to be condemned, China was seen as reacting, to a Taiwan Presidents actions. The blame from the international community went to who they thought were the cause.


#2174

He’s not the retiring sort.


#2175

Is that how these things actually work?


#2176

Neither is Bill, as you pointed out. What I meant was, what do you see him doing after he leaves the presidency?

President for Life is his dream, of course, but he won’t pull it off. (Sorry Milko.)


#2177

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#2178

Yet another advantage of the Trump presidency–Dennis Rodman crying live on TV in a MAGA hat. A marvelous scene like this would never have happened if Hillary had won the election.


#2179

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

“Trump dindu nothing! Dennis Rodman probably had more to do with peace in Korea than Trump!!”
Dennis Rodman shows up with a MAGA hat.

This fucking timeline, man. What have we done to deserve so much?


#2180

And this at the same time as De Niro gives his “Fuck Trump” speech to a standing ovation at the Tonys. What a great time to be alive.


#2181

What a world


#2182

Scientifically designed for maximum liberal head explosion…