Well if you believe that, then there is no way you understand the average Taiwanese.
How about 10-15% of the people support TI and they like to exaggerate that 70% people support TI. Gullible outsiders not familiar with Taiwanese love of exaggerating assume 70% to really mean 70%.
Look if TI was as popular as people in f.com make it out to be. Why is the TSU membership in Taiwan so small compared to the DPP and KMT?
You understand DPP and KMT are the Status Quo parties that lean towards independence and unification more as a talking point to motivate people to the poll. But in terms of real politics they won’t make any real change to Status Quo.
Ten to fifteen percent eh? That’s funny; that’s what they say on the mainland. The exaggeration you speak of is not uniquely Taiwanese. I’ve noticed that when Chinese in general invent stories, they often, and rather perversely, do so in a manner which proposes the exact opposite of the reality or accepted truth. The Dalai Lama is not a spiritual leader - he’s a devil. Your co-worker was fired because she “didn’t work hard” (even though she put in overtime every night and the entire staff knows she was let go for disagreeing with the boss), and so on. I for one have noticed this tendancy for exaggeration of which you speak.
Tell me:
1.) What do you think is the source of this “exaggeration”?
2.) Why do you think Taiwanese feel the need to exaggerate?
3.) Are foreigners naive to ever believe them, then? Or only in instances political?
4.) If Taiwanese people were to believe that - whatever it is - 70%, or the majority of Taiwanese people want independence, would you consider them naive as well? And if so, why no mention of this in your post?
What does the Dali Lama or some underachieving employee have to do with TI?
If those are your frame of referrence for approaching the Strait Issue, I fear you don’t understand it from the average Taiwanese perspective.
Because it is more fun to have people behave in manner contrary to their platform…
Here’s the hypothesis I propose. Most FOB foreigners in Taiwan don’t know any better. If I told a FOB that a squat toilet was used to wash their feet, they’d probably believe me. Since a clean squat toilet looks like it was meant to wash something. So if I boiled down the Strait Issue to one sentence that Taiwanese want independence, they’d probably believe that too. Because what frame of reference or desire do they have to prove that contrary to that statement. Why would a product of a 1st nation propaganda wouldn’t believe Taiwan wants to be independent of a communist 2nd world nation?
However, the Taiwanese motivation for this self deception has more to do with status and face. Why would an average Taiwanese want to associate with the “sick old man of Asia?” Since they know, we know, they know that foreigners rarely make distinction between PRC and ROC. In addition, since they know, we know, they know, we know that Japan pop culture is cool, wouldn’t there be more status to try to associate Taiwan with “cool” Japan than “sick” China.
[quote=“Ed Lakewood”]Ten to fifteen percent eh? That’s funny; that’s what they say on the mainland. The exaggeration you speak of is not uniquely Taiwanese. I’ve noticed that when Chinese in general invent stories, they often, and rather perversely, do so in a manner which proposes the exact opposite of the reality or accepted truth. The Dalai Lama is not a spiritual leader - he’s a devil. Your co-worker was fired because she “didn’t work hard” (even though she put in overtime every night and the entire staff knows she was let go for disagreeing with the boss), and so on. I for one have noticed this tendancy for exaggeration of which you speak.
Tell me:
1.) What do you think is the source of this “exaggeration”?
2.) Why do you think Taiwanese feel the need to exaggerate?
3.) Are foreigners naive to ever believe them, then? Or only in instances political?
4.) If Taiwanese people were to believe that - whatever it is - 70%, or the majority of Taiwanese people want independence, would you consider them naive as well? And if so, why no mention of this in your post?
Thank you,
Ed[/quote]
Boy, what’s the deal with gringos liking to make gross generalization. (Is that an exaggeration? :roflmao: )
I’m one of those foreigners who believes having the knowledge about Taiwan politics of an “average Taiwanese” is not always something you should brag about.
I’m pretty surprised too. China Times coverage had interesting subtexts: front page of Lai with a head band supporting ‘Taiwanization’ and a picture of her standing next to LTH (the devil incarnate in Chinese nationalist theology) holding a book entitled " A New Constitution for Taiwan." Wow![/quote]
AC, your ignorance of Taiwan is showing. Lai is a she.[/quote]
The average Taiwanese can choose to live where they like. As long as they have the proper paperwork and economic ability, why should they be restricted to live in southern Taiwan and only speaking Minnan, as the DPP like to portray.
There are many DPP members that have lived in Japan, USA, Canada, Singapore, HK, etc for extended period of time.
Would anyone question Mark Chen’s (陳唐山) or Peng Ming Min Taiwanese status?
But my parents left for higher education and because of Hoklo chauvinism in Taiwan. They had no issues with the KMT led government of the time.
My issues with the DPP led government has been clearly stated in f.com. Many average Taiwanese made votes their based on those issues.
Clearly if the average Taiwanese didn’t share my sentiments, which would be odd, since I’m one of them, wouldn’t the results at the ballots been much different in the last 2 years.
He he he. I always love that one. Puts everything you write in perspective. “Dear ones, even though the KMT are in power, and we live in a wsr dominated city, we have to leave as we are constantly being hounded and harrassed by the dirty Hoklos who live 300km away.”
AC, quit playing the fucking fool. We, me, everyone on Fcom live here and have local friends and colleagues, and if your parents left because of Hoklo chauvinism in the 90s they were fools, paranoids, or simply, and more likely, looking for a good excuse to get off an island that by then had been so fouled up by 40 years of KMT rule, everyone who could was getting out.
Met lots of the overseas Taiwanese community as grew up in Vancouver. They always wondered why I lived in taiwan when Vancouver was so much more livable. For almost all of them it was livability that made them leave. The irony is that after 8 years of DPP rule the island is so much more livable but you will give the party no credit for that. Just as well. We don’t need your kind here.
Even though Taipei is more WSR friendly than southern Taiwan, much of Taiwan society is Hoklo dominated. If you’re a WSR fresh out of medical school, chances are most of your supervisors are BSR, and most likely Hoklo.
Doesn’t take much for college professors at any of top ROC universities to just switch to Minnan in hopes of WSR not catching key lecture notes.
In the end you are just living vicariously about the inter-ethnic tensions within Taiwan. I don’t need to ask my wife about being either a WSR or BSR. I’ve been mistaken for both on Taiwan.
See there’s that class issue again with you. Why didn’t you associate with people in Richmond?..
[quote=“ac_dropout”]In the end you are just living vicariously about the inter-ethnic tensions within Taiwan. I don’t need to ask my wife about being either a WSR or BSR. I’ve been mistaken for both on Taiwan.
[/quote]
No, having a wsr wife who I have travelled widely with around the island, I have seen inter-ethnic tensions up close and personal. I have also when travelling solo found people’s attitudes change toward me when I revealed my wife is wsr. So, not vicarious at all. You’re really quite stupid about all this at times.
I know there is a degree of chauvinism, and the Chen government really did exploit it and worsen it, but it is nothing to flee a country from (and certainly not in the 90s). It’s simply not that serious, especially now that a lot of people have simply grown tired of it.
When I say Vancouver I mean the entire lower Mainland. I grew up in North Delta, which is just a skip away from Richmond.
In any case, I am confused. Am I suposed to be elitist or have a working class chip on my shoulder? Richmond is wealthier than Vancouver’s Chinatown, but Taiwanese who live in Shaunessy or North or West Van are far wealthier than Richmonders.
I wonder how this stands as and avg Taiwanese? Sounds more like confused WSR, ABC.
Was “Love Boat” really that scarring an experience???[/quote]
Love Boat never really was my cup of tea. I bump into those guys when clubbing in Taipei as a kid. But those people were far from bilingual and bicultural. Those guys would wanted people to know they’ve been oversea.
Some of those ABC girls wanted to hook up. I was like in total shock. Making love to an American while in Taiwan. Geez why bother summering in Taiwan.
I was quite happy to just be another average Taiwanese.
Yes I see, not vicarious at all. People thought you were a WSR, once they realised your wife was a WSR. Thank goodness English is like my 3rd or 4th language, you have really clarified how to use the word vicarious. How embarrassing of me to use the antonym.
Yes that must be the forgotten ROC province, lost in one of those unfair treaties. North Delta-ese should be taught in ROC public schools. Beijing-ese has the -er suffix. North Delta-ese has the -eh suffix.
But instead of socializing with the suburban Richmond Taiwanese, you went out of your way to associate with the inner city Vancouver Taiwanese.
Admitting that you’ve exhibiting this kind of social economic discrimination for your entire life is just so disturbing. You must be one of those socialist CJG use to warn us average Taiwanese about.
The definition of what an ethnic group is notoriously vague. Here’s one definition:
BSR (benshengren) believe that they are descended from migrants from Fujian who came to Taiwan several hundred years ago. In addition to this experience of migration, they also share the experience of having been colonized first by the Japanese and, arguably, again by the Nationalist rump regime that moved to Taiwan in 1949 and imposed a new language and ideology on them. BSR certainly share a subjective believe in their shared cultural customs including marriage and funerary rituals as well as religious practices such as worship of Mazu or throwing divining blocks. The point is not that other Chinese communities elsewhere objectively also do these things, but rather that BSR subjectively believe that their community shares these similar customs and that ethnic groups in Taiwan do not.
WSR (waishengren) also have their own memory of a migration (their arrival in Taiwan as refugees in Taiwan in 1949). The tendency of mainlanders to marry other mainlanders and their clustering in certain areas also suggests that they have their own unique ethnic identity.
I think BSR and WSR were once very distinctive ethnic groups although the importance of the distinction is lessening as a new hybrid identity emerges and memories of migrations, colonization, and custom fade. But the new hybrid identity is not truly an ethnicity per se since it is a post-Chinese imaginary community that transcends ethnic identity.
Forgive me for missing the part of our discusion about discrimination against Waiguoren (WGR).
I’ll have you know I have the top of the line electronic dictionary. Fully functional, vibration mode, North American diction, touch sensitive, in a sleek modern case.
…
Feiren definition is somewhat dry and acedemic. Those who forefather’s hometowns are in Taiwan are BSR. Those where forefather’s hometowns are in a province outside of Taiwan is a WSR. It’s a very Chinese concept. Just look at a resume in Taiwan.
Of course overtime the distinction becomes muddles as more and more of us have shared BSR/WSR heritage.
Many of us were upset that the DPP introduced this as a wedge issue in the 2000 presidential campaign.
