The peak woke thread

By Tucker Carlson, it probably is. At the same time, look at the backlash against Jordan Peterson (who I personally don’t believe is a transphobic bigot, although the assumption that he is made him famous). Either way, I stand by my original point that critical theorists are not particularly open to criticism.

I Googled for a Jonathan Haidt reference for this but the LA Times will do

OK, 100% agree there

Well, quite the opposite in my case

We would have to draw lines on what constitutes academic thought, academic work, and academic influence. In my experience at a large research intensive university in Canada, where I was active in more spheres than I care to list here, the prevalence was high.

Maybe. Certainly a medical school or a law school won’t deal with a lot of this day-to-day, STEM as we mentioned. It’ll come through in memos. If you are at a North American school where the student unions and English departments don’t lean Critical Theory, I’d be surprised. Education (my PhD field) has a lot of it, and in Canada we get undergraduates from across the university.

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They learn it, but I guess what I’m taking issue with here is the idea that even within the field of critical theory, there are vast disagreements. You’re holding up ‘critical theory’ as one static entity that is oversaturated with wacky VFIL ideas. I would contend, maybe I’m off here, that most critical theorists themselves would look at those papers and call BS on them.


Here’s a story for you, and this goes out to @Dr_Milker: I was teaching a community Ed college English course in NY back in the early 2000s. I had a great rapport with my class, everyone learning a lot etc.

2 guest lecturers came into my class one day, and the topic was something along the lines of indigenous basket weaving. They did their lesson, my students were kind of puzzled by it but went along politely.

At the end, we were asked to give our thoughts about the guest lesson. All the teachers in the program besides me raved about it, it was the most amazing lesson they’d ever seen. I was then asked my opinion.

I told them candidly: “I think this lesson was probably fun and on a theoretical level interesting to consider, but my students are working class people that still don’t know how to tell the Bus driver where they want to get off and need to learn how to go get groceries. This lesson taught them vocabulary they’ll never use, like a native american term for wicker basket. It’s cool that they were exposed to these ideas, but I don’t feel it’s practical”.

Both of my bosses were pretty into some far left politics, and I fell out of favor in the office for telling them how I felt.

So maybe you’re right.

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The funny thing is, I’m pretty sure you and I agree on most things. My issue is that when it comes to questions of race and gender (which can come up in human relations, you know, from time to time) it is very difficult to have dispassionate conversations.

Well, how many are going to call BS on their own work?

Indigenous stuff, like race and gender, is a minefield in Canada. I think what you experienced in the early 2000s is more widespread than you might think in 2020, and spreading farther still…

(and Tucker Carlson is legit deplorable, no sarcasm, amiright?)

Not that difficult. I think one misnomer is these conversations are all fraught with ‘emotion’. Race and gender can be discussed dispassionately.

This implies all of their work is soaked in VFIL ideology or that they all agree with it and/or are toeing some line.

That wouldn’t surprise me. But I’ll reiterate–most of the academics I know in the states are reasonable political centrists that can read a piece of critical theory, even a VFL one, and be critical of it and hold it in it’s proper place.

He’s a POS


Here’s one last story–this one going out to @BiggusDickus who doesn’t engage with me but might appreciate this story anyways.

I was in an African-American studies course as an undergrad. The speaker was a white pastor from the southern part of the US that had lived through the civil rights movement in the 50’s and 60s. We were discussing slavery, and in all fire and brimstone he denounced all white southerners as EVIL.

Hold on, I objected. I believe that this interpretation slows any kind of bridge to understanding, because I think what motivated poor white southerners in the south was FEAR. They feared the loss of their jobs, livelihoods. That’s not a justification for it, but if you understand that poor southern white confederates were scared, misinformed humans fearing the loss of their livelihood instead of EVIL, then maybe you can reach out to them based on how they are actually thinking to reform their ideas.

He looked back at me: THEY WERE EVIL.

The prof in that class–a white liberal–gave me a very hard time about the fact that I read a lot of Fritz Nietzsche the philosopher. “HES JUST CONCERNED WITH POWER, THATS A WHITE SUPREMACIST CONCEPT”.

“Didn’t Malcolm X say exactly the same thing” I asked him?

He just kind of rolled his eyes. So yeah that dogma element is there. But I still believe it’s not reflective of the majority of US academics.

This has not been my experience

I think we have an entirely new thread topic here, certainly the science is on pause… (*disclaimer, I do believe that we are all equally human regardless of our birth circumstances)

Yes, but I meant primarily in education, humanities, social sciences, most of the administration, and official student groups. I have a lot of flexibility on details, but yes it implies (and based on my experience, yours may be very different and equally valid)

I’d be more interested to know how many call BS when they see it in a memo on race/gender/etc. (assuming that it is, of course, possible)

Amen brother. Yet somehow, still the most interesting thing on Fox. I guess. I don’t watch Fox.

how do you do that fancy line???

Many of us, a lot of the time?

as an aside, @jdsmith has a Nihilism Thread if you’re feeling frisky

‘Judge not by the colour of the skin but the content of the character’ is a paraphrase that got me in trouble more than once during my PhD, but is an idea I prefer not to compromise on. White privilege my ass.

(it is so interesting how Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt have been thrown together by the culture wars, only the thought of the latter I’m personally interested in)

Yes!

No!

I think there’s a bit of a false dichotomy in that last one. You can still acknowledge white privilege is a real existent thing that affects real lives in real ways, but maintain: ‘Judge not by the colour of the skin but the content of the character’.

These aren’t opposites, they go hand in hand together.

I have to be frank that I am turned off by the title “Leftism is the New Fundamental Religion” in an era where the good old fashioned Fundamental Right Wing religions are running the show. But I will give it an open and honest listen. I’m very skeptical of JP’s intentions and agree with @yyy that it’s safe to call him far right (If I got his meaning right from the other thread).

Words of wisdom:

“The psychologists I spoke to before Trump was elected overwhelmingly said that the diagnosis they would make based on what they saw is narcissistic personality disorder,” Haidt said. “And I think we’ve seen that continuously since his election, that he tends to make everything about him. And so that is pretty much the opposite of ethical leadership, where it needs to be about the team and our shared interest. I don’t see much of a chance of us really coming together and overcoming our differences before the election. Or, basically, as long as Trump is in office.”

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Here, I sense some divergence in our opinions :frowning:

Do people who are white tend to get away with shit more often than black people, because of skin color? I’d say yes. Have white people globally inherited a lot of wealth thanks to the successful plunder of the rest of the world by Europeans in the second half of the last millennium? Almost certainly. I can understand how one could look at the world and see white privilege.

People always ask me where I’m from, it’s a fun game for me. Apparently if I ask other people this question it is very offensive. If you think white privilege is real, I could challenge your conception of whiteness.

I think white privilege is a social construct which is too widely wielded. There seems to me to be a narrative that forgets slavery in some places and emphasizes it in others. My personal opinion is that all slavery is bad and we should really focus on the people who are actual human slaves now. Do you eat fish?

My personal issue with white privilege is that it has been used against me as a reason for me to not speak. For that reason it is a self-defeating idea and you will be hard pressed to convince me otherwise unless you are brilliant and we are drunk. Further, I think we should look beyond ‘whiteness’ to the real problem which is ‘oppression’. As long as we focus on race, only the racists win, right?

OK, and you also didn’t read the article I shared and later had to quote, so can we agree now I don’t have to read or watch anything you post that I don’t wanna? Because I’m really OK with that, let’s just agree to have the right to skip?

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I think the process of Redlining and Black people being denied home loans available to whites post war is the most defining systemic limitation, and one that realistically affects lives today in a very real manner. White people were allowed to accrue generational wealth post WW2 by getting loans via the GI bill. Black people were denied these loans. Black neighborhoods had their properties redlined or deemed unsafe by racist developers, so their home values plummeted. Freeways were built in the middle of their neighborhoods.

Real estate is the main field where systemic racism has played out the most, besides the war on drugs and policing.

It’s real in job interviews

In the United States, the majority of people fitting that description are people of color. See: amazon drivers

How? You’re speaking a lot here.

I think its the other way around at the moment, but I think I can convince you white privilege is a real existent thing that affects life trajectories. This is why I fear the types of arguments that PC is a religion etc, they are too quickly used to denigrate ideas of racial equity that are important. (See, just more extremist wank from the far left!)

Only certain people in America have the luxury of NOT being focused on it. If you are denied home loans, more likely to be profiled, have policing issues because of your skin color, then its impossible not to focus on it. What I see more is a pattern of race denials couched in the form of not buying into the PC religion etc. You can see how it slips into that quickly.

No! I haven’t gotten to it yet because we’ve been chatting. Please don’t assume that I’m not reading what you are posting. I still need to watch the video you sent.

I’m not ok with that. If you post something Ill read/watch it and vice versa.

In that case, kindly go back and read the article I posted and the video as well, and get back to me then. Cheers.

I will. Please read what I wrote above about the GI Bill/Redlining in terms of white privilege being an active concept.

:beers:

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It used to be the American Dream. Now it’s the American Drama where the only way to get ahead in this era of long term economic decline is to play the victim.

The challenge now is to come up with the best victim narrative and push it better and harder than anyone else until payoff time of some sort. The “me too” choices are many currently and limited only by imagination so pick one. You can be a victim of slavery, sexual assault, white privilege, microaggression, systemic racism, misogyny etc. and no one can demand proof or question your narrative because that would be victim blaming.

The only problem is the American Drama is bound to end badly because there are only so many villains to go around – not to mention money – so a lot of people are going to end up going to a lot of trouble for nothing.

At what point have you ever made a good faith effort to understand any of the ideas you criticize? You critique liberalism and american politics all the time, where are you even getting your information from?

This is Fox News. This is American conservativism in 2021. You just defined it to the letter.


Seriously, I believe your ideas would be more palatable if you yourself understood or were any way engaged with the liberal ideas you bash. Know them first. You can’t know what the left is about, you don’t even know their ideas or the basic premises. You clearly have made no attempt at all to read up on or understand liberal ideas at all.

If you have some specific writers/thinkers etc you want to criticize, show some examples. Otherwise these are just platitiudes.

In my case it’s not about trying harder. I just don’t have the codependency gene so I’m never going to play rescuer to any professional victims. They’re on their own as far as I’m concerned.

The idea of codependency may have its roots in the theories of German psychoanalyst Karen Horney. In 1941, she proposed that some people adopt what she termed a “Moving Toward” personality style to overcome their basic anxiety. Essentially, these people move toward others by gaining their approval and affection, and subconsciously control them through their dependent style. They are unselfish, virtuous, martyr-like, faithful, and turn the other cheek despite personal humiliation. Approval from others is more important than respecting themselves.

The term codependency is most often identified with Alcoholics Anonymous and the realization that the Alcoholism was not solely about the addict but also about the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic." The term “codependent” is used to describe how family members and friends might actually interfere with recovery by overhelping."

I don’t speak this doublespeak alt-right net basura, and the sarcasm is tiresome.

Engage with ideas or step off please. You’re not teaching anyone anything here.

You’re not in charge here.

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I’m in charge of my own block button now, and that’s about enough. Not here for this stupid back and forth and the mods have repeatedly cautioned against it, so this is my last message on this topic. If you don’t like my ideas hit the button.

lol. jovially, all i see is batman

I have no need to cancel you or your ideas. What you need to realize is you’re not helping people by enabling their self-image as perpetual victims. You’re their jailkeeper.

Yeah, I’m hitting the gong on this here. It’s been a pleasure.