The Pink Martini Salon

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

It seems to me that ever since the old Source Web site tanked and a few sistas got outta Dodge, there has been no place for the once-vibrant conversations about gays in Taiwan that happened there. I see Magnolia has paid visits here in Forumosa and that has made me pine for the old days. I took up a proposal for a forum (or fora), “Queer Salon,” similar to La Vida Loca en Taiwan with the Creative Braintrust and the consensus was to start a thread here on Living in Taiwan and see how it develops.
If you are gay and want to talk about gay topics here in Taiwan, tell your friends and invite them here. Maybe some Taiwanese who like foreigners will come too and rehash some of those old culture-conflict debates we used to have.

But what’s on my mind is yesterday’s march. Was there a showing of the foreign community?

Moderator’s Note: Posts related to Taiwan’s First Gay Parade were moved here.

2

Little Buddha, You are so gay. :wink: Everything you say or do points toward a certain conviction regarding your sexuality. Even your thesis is gay. How could you say it doesn’t define you to some extent?

3

LittleBuddha: That

4

Well, duh, what a stupid question. Everyone knows straight men like Latino cock.

5

Of course it defines me to some extent … but it’s not my defining characteristic. If your gaydar wasn’t so finely tuned and if I hadn’t mentioned that I had a boyfriend, you probably wouldn’t have even known I was gay … well maybe not … :laughing:

BTW, when are we gonna get together again so you can meet him? You’ll have to brush up on your Chinese cause he can barely utter one sentence of English, though … and you might get jealous since he’s so amazingly gorgeous … but I think you’d like him! :wink:

6

Well, duh, what a stupid question. Everyone knows straight men like Latino cock.[/quote]
Magnolia… Yes, YES, YEEEEESSSS. Thank you for vocalizing that! Couldn’t possibly agree more.

And Flicka… :laughing: I nearly fell off my chair. Remind me to put in a request in the “emoticon” forum for a smiley who is laughing so hard he is peeing himself.

7

I wholeheartedly agree. However, if those educators don’t know any gay people… or, more likely, don’t know that they know any gay people… it will be harder for them to teach acceptance. The only way this society, or any society, will truly come to open themselves up to the diversity around them is for them to see that diversity. And, to do that, that means that those of us who are different than the “standard” have to put ourselves out there, from time to time. This is hard. This is difficult. This can even be painful. And, not everyone (I admit, myself included) is ready to do it all the time (or at all). But, we need to start somewhere.

I’m so sick of stereotypes. All gay people are feminine. All gay people are bottoms. All gay people like to dress in women’s clothes. All gay men are sexually promiscous. All gay men are sexually attracted to all straight men out there, no matter how amazingly ugly they are. Etc… etc… ad naseum.

When I do tell people that I’m gay or that I have a boyfriend, I do it for a number of reasons:

  1. I want them to see that there are a variety of gay people out there.
  2. I want them to confront their prejudices and stereotypes.
  3. I believe I have just as much right to talk about my sexuality and/or my relationship as the straight people around.
  4. And, yes, sometimes I want to shock them.

I’m always shocked at the number of people, gay and straight, that get completely flabbergasted when I tell them that I told someone I was gay.

“You can’t tell a Taiwanese person you are gay!!!”
“Why the hell not?”
“Because it will make them uncomfortable.”
“Yeah… so? And, I’m supposed to be uncomfortable by hiding who I am?”

Stepping (or being pushed) out of our comfort zone is what makes us grow. And, societies around the world need to grow when it comes to recognizing that just 'cause I’m a guy and I like hairy chests and penises, instead of big breasts and vaginas, doesn’t make me an oddity.

8

I can’t imagine how difficult that would be… both living a repressed existence and, if you choose, to “come out”.

From the hetero perspective, it can be awkward too, especially if a good friend, who you really care about, is gay but doesn’t say so. I’m not suggesting that its anywhere near as difficult as a gay person’s experience, just that its awkwardly uncomfortable.

I have two good friends back home, both gay… and I’ve known they were gay for many years. But because they never said anything about it, I never made an issue of it. But, once they finally admitted that they were indeed gay, it was like a big weight had been lifted off our shoulders. In both instances, my gay friends indicated that they didn’t know that I knew that they were gay, and acted (maybe it was genuine, I don’t know) surprised…

I now know two gay guys here in Taipei, one professionally and the other because he comes into my wife’s store frequently. They are at least friends to each other and perhaps more. I know they’re gay and I don’t care. But since they haven’t brought up the subject, I often feel uncomfortable talking about my wife and child when hanging out with them… because I know that they are keeping their own relationship secret. If its uncomfortable for me, I suppose it must be very painful for them.

9

[quote=“tigerman”]

I can’t imagine how difficult that would be… both living a repressed existence and, if you choose, to “come out”. [/quote]

It can be very difficult. In the west, it is often because those around you have been taught, from day one, that being gay is a sin or just plain “icky.” Here in Taiwan it seems more because people want you to fit into a social role – that of the married child, who will bare grandchildren and carry on the family. Image if you had to keep your attraction to women, your relationship with your wife (you do have a wife, don’t you?), etc… secret from those around you?

The worst part for me is knowing that some poeple, when I tell them I am gay, will have a complete reversal of opinion about me. Even though before knowing, they thought I was a great guy, caring, blah, blah, blah… after, all they can see is the big pink letters tatooed (in there eyes) on my forehead that say “Fag!”

Now some will say that I shouldn’t worry about their reaction. If they can’t accept me than to hell with them. And, in many ways I agree. But, I still find it hard to have that attitude when it comes to family members and/or friends I’ve had for years. There is still a part of me that wants to be accepted and loved.

Don’t be uncomfortable talking about your life with them. Just as they shouldn’t have to hide their life from you (though, they choose to for their own reasons), you shouldn’t feel you have to hide your life from them. And, find ways to let them know you are ok with them being gay. For instance, tell them about your gay friends back home – what nice guys they are, how you enjoy spending time with them and their partners, etc… But, realize that even though you are ok with it, these guys still may not be.

It is often easier to accept something seen as “non-standard” by the majority in someone else, than it is to accept it in yourself.

10

[quote=“QuietMountain”]

The worst part for me is knowing that some poeple, when I tell them I am gay, will have a complete reversal of opinion about me. [/quote]

I would say that’s their problem, not yours. :unamused:
Who gives a shit about ignorant people who’re too closed minded and naive to handle the BIG BAD WORLD. You should be the one judging them rather than the other way around.

11

[quote=“QuietMountain”]

The worst part for me is knowing that some poeple, when I tell them I am gay, will have a complete reversal of opinion about me. [/quote]

[quote=“Alien”]I would say that’s their problem, not yours. :unamused:
Who gives a shit about ignorant people who’re too closed minded and naive to handle the BIG BAD WORLD. You should be the one judging them rather than the other way around.[/quote]

I agree, Alien, that it shouldn’t be QM’s problem… but it is. Nobody likes being judged. And when it is done by people with whom you have developed a relationship, I suppose it could hurt.

Imagine if homosexuality were the norm and heterosexuals were regarded with scorn and suspicion… and everytime we disclosed our heterosexuality, we had to deal with the judgments.

At best I think it would be tedious, at worst…

12

[quote=“tigerman”][quote=“Alien”]I would say that’s their problem, not yours. :unamused:
Who gives a shit about ignorant people who’re too closed minded and naive to handle the BIG BAD WORLD. You should be the one judging them rather than the other way around.[/quote]

I agree, Alien, that it shouldn’t be QM’s problem… but it is. Nobody likes being judged. And when it is done by people with whom you have developed a relationship, I suppose it could hurt.[/quote]

I’d have to agree there. The second person I came out to wrote me a 7 page letter which she slipped under my dorm-room door later that very night. The letter told me how she wanted to “save me.” Needless to say, I was very hurt. This was someone who I had trusted enough to tell her my deepest darkest secret. You wonder why gay men are often “bitchy”, preparing to care about nothing… It’s often a defense mechanism. Don’t we all wish we could care as little as the bitchy queen appears to?! I’d venture a guess that many fierce black women out there get the “attitude” because of years of being trod upon. I’d also speculate that many of these women care a lot more about what people think than they say they do. Maybe this is why gay men and black women often make great friends… ?!

13

I would say that’s their problem, not yours. :unamused: Who gives a shit about ignorant people who’re too closed minded and naive to handle the BIG BAD WORLD. You should be the one judging them rather than the other way around.[/quote]

Alien, apparently in all your fag-hag, open-mindedness you failed to read and /or truly understand what I said. I did say that I realized that many would feel the way you do. And, that I even agreed with you (in the long run). However, that still doesn’t mean it is easy to accept that people you’ve known for a long time (sometimes all your life) will reject you for one reason and one reason only… you are gay. Especially after they’ve spent a lifetime liking you.

There is often a difference between understanding or accepting a concept intellectually and doing so emotionally. And, I still find it hard, emotionally, to not give a shit about rejection from people I care about. Others that I don’t know as well or just met, I could care less whether they like me after I tell them.

Perhaps none of the fags that you’ve hagged for have had that problem. And, cheers for them. But, it is more likely, as Scooter mentioned, that they are just hiding their hurt behind a bitchy exterior.

By the way, I appreciate the support in/of what you said… but, Ms. Thang, it ain’t always that easy!

14

QM,

Then why do you bother to invest so much time in people who may end up rejecting you once they know your sexual preference? Seems like you set yourself up for it. And also, how could you care so deeply for people who may have values that are essentially different from yours?
I guess I’m a guarded person. I know a lot of folks on a superficial level, but i let only a handful get close to me. I just don’t trust most people because I’d been hurt many times in my naive past too. Not for being gay, of course, but that’s not the only reason friends reject or do deplorable things . Could be why I"m a bitch! :wink:

I reckon you’re “Mr. Nice Guy”, and more power to you, but I hope you learn how to become more discerning or you’ll walk around with open wounds.
Act like Anna Magnani would: “I zay FOCK YOU!”

15

This line of reasoning is what made me change from homophobic to accepting of others’ sexual preferences. I used to fear and make fun of gay people until, in my early 20s, I met a few great guys who are gay and I realized that they deserved to be able to form intimate relationships according to their preferences, just as I was allowed to. This was also the beginning of my philisophical separation from the Mormon church. Though the church never advocated fearing and making fun of gays (that was caused by my own stupidity), the church does condemn homosexual behavior. I figured at that point that the church was dead wrong on that issue.

16

Good for you Tomas. Sadly, there are also many homosexuals who are also homophobic. Turkish men are a classic example. They will take delight in ridiculing “sissy” boys, but take similar delight in buggering a boy down the baths once a week.

17

I didn’t realize that this would be so hard to understand. Am I speaking swahili, instead of English? Ah… I bothered to invest so much time in these people because they are my family and friends from when I was growing up. Many of them are people that I met and developed relationships with long before I even accepted being gay myself.

Now, today, in the present, I usually don’t develop close relationships with anyone who can’t handle that I’m gay. But, there are still a lot of people in my life who were part of established relationships well before I started coming-out and acceptance by those around me was an issue to me. At that point I made these relationships, I was too worried about trying to accept myself to even think about worrying about other people’s reactions.

Maybe as the “bitch” you claim to be you could just chuck those people out of your life. But, I can’t just…

BTW, the only people I currently am trying to develop a relationship with who won’t quite accept me for being gay (and, currently, dont’ “officially” know I’m gay) are my bf’s family. And, they won’t accept me less because I’m gay, than because I’m “molesting” their son and keeping him gay. :smiling_imp:

18

What about the classic examples here?

19

[quote=“QuietMountain”]
BTW, the only people I currently am trying to develop a relationship with who won’t quite accept me for being gay (and, currently, dont’ “officially” know I’m gay) are my bf’s family. And, they won’t accept me less because I’m gay, than because I’m “molesting” their son and keeping him gay. :smiling_imp:[/quote]

I am confused. They don’t officially know your gay but they think your are molesting their son and keeping him gay?

20

[quote=“QuietMountain”]
BTW, the only people I currently am trying to develop a relationship with who won’t quite accept me for being gay (and, currently, dont’ “officially” know I’m gay) are my bf’s family. And, they won’t accept me less because I’m gay, than because I’m “molesting” their son and keeping him gay. :smiling_imp:[/quote]

??? That’s too bad. But I don’t think Taiwanese families are worth all the effort. Speaking from experience…
You’ll never be truly accepted, gay or straight, so why bother? And they will be expected to accomodate their families. Rubbish!

You seem a bit touchier than you used to be. Bit on edge there, QM?
:wink:
Well me too. I feel like throwing a brick off my balcony. It’s all the manic tension in the air. And the pollution is so thick you could spread it on toast.