The Pink Martini Salon

[quote=“Flicka”][quote=“QuietMountain”]
BTW, the only people I currently am trying to develop a relationship with who won’t quite accept me for being gay (and, currently, dont’ “officially” know I’m gay) are my bf’s family. And, they won’t accept me less because I’m gay, than because I’m “molesting” their son and keeping him gay. :smiling_imp:[/quote]

I am confused. They don’t officially know your gay but they think your are molesting their son and keeping him gay?[/quote]

Officially = my bf hasn’t told them outright yet: “Mom, Dad… you already know I’m gay. Well, Jonathan is not just my friend, he is my bf.”

Unofficially = they are not dumb and have figured it out. They keep suggesting that I get my own apartment. At least they haven’t, as a friend’s mother has about his American bf, suggested I move back to the US.

And, before you ask. They did ask my bf once if he was dating someone. He asked them if they really wanted to know, since they told him he shouldn’t have told them he was gay. After thinking about it, they said no. So, he didn’t tell them. But, said that when they decided they really wanted to know he would. This not wanting to know gives them, I think, a certain level of deniability that they seem to prefer.

[quote=“Alien”]??? That’s too bad. But I don’t think Taiwanese families are worth all the effort. Speaking from experience…
You’ll never be truly accepted, gay or straight, so why bother? [/quote]

I bother because A’s family is important to him. So, therefore they are important to me. And, though I know you are right (that I’ll never truly be accepted), I still think it is worth the effort. Maybe, some day, 100 years from now, his mother will realize I’m not such a bad guy.

Sorry, if I seemed that way. Just seemed it was taking you a long time to grasp my point.

You are living with them?

QM: I completely understand what you are saying. I totally agree that it is worth the effort to get to know your bf’s family and to at least find a way of getting along with them. Alien, if he doesn’t make at least this small effort, then he can just say goodbye to his bf now. His number one priority in his relationship is his bf (as it should be), and as we all know, Taiwanese men are very strongly connected to their families. In this situation, his relationship with the family is not the primary goal, so even if he knows he’s failed before he’s begun, it is still worth it because of the benefits it will have for his relationship with his boy.

As for other people, yeah, for the most part I’d have to say I don’t make close friendships with homophobes. But that said, I don’t run around telling everybody I’m gay as soon as I meet them. It’s just not practical (in much the same way that you don’t tell everybody about your ex-husband or who you are bonking at the moment, as soon as you meet them). And if they don’t spout off an anti-gay line, then sometimes the topic isn’t broached for quite a while.

It seems that many gay men (myself included) tend to be very self-conscious. A lot of us care too much about what other people think about us (appearance is also included in this). This comes from years of practise “hiding”, fear of being discovered, and then after we are out there is tons of pressure to look good, from the gay community itself. I’d argue that a lot of women have similar issues of being overly self-conscious, too, which translates into caring too much about what others think. (maybe not alien? :wink: )

[quote=“Alien”] That’s too bad. But I don’t think Taiwanese families are worth all the effort. Speaking from experience…
You’ll never be truly accepted, gay or straight, so why bother? And they will be expected to accomodate their families. Rubbish! [/quote]

Spot on. My Boyfriend’s family aren’t too displeased with his being gay, but they can’t mention the word, and his father’s eyes are incapable of meeting mine. Still, I suspect they think it is a passing phase (going on 20 years) for my BF, and I am surely to blame as the great demon pederast. Can supergay convert dad with one eye ray, too?

So many of Taiwan’s gay men want nothing more than too flee the island because it’s so hard for them to live as a gay man here.

You are living with them?[/quote]
Yeah, right!!! :unamused: Like any of us would survive that arrangement. No, my bf and I share an apartment. But, they keep suggesting that he move back home and that I find my own place to live. Even though he hasn’t lived at home for four years, and has no desire to move back there, they still “provided” him with his own room when they built their new house.

Scooter, thanks for the support. :smiley:

My bf knows how hard it is for me to spend time with his family, especially since my Chinese is limited and their English is, too. And, everytime I do go with him to his parents, grandparents, etc… I know he appreciates it. However, I’m not sure that I would lose him over it. He doesn’t really want to be spending time with them either. (He tends to be a cross between an American & a Taiwanese in his attitudes.) But, he does the “family thing” because his family is important to him. Besides, if he doesn’t spend some time with his family, his mother will keep guilting him.

“Are your friends more important than your family?” No mom, but they are more fun. “We never see you.” That’s 'cause I have a life. “Why haven’t you called?” See my previous answer! Sheesh :unamused:
[/b]

Here’s an exchange on the topic of gay marriage in the US… Judge Bork, who I believe is the finest legal mind in the US, but whom the Democrats wouldn’t confirm (a real shame, IMO), had the following to say in a recent interview:

This is excerpted from a much longer interview… if interested in the rest, click on this link.

I don’t know, man. If someone I am dating’s family can’t give me a respectful welcome, then that person can consider himself dumped. I went out with one guy who was too terrified to even bring me to his place for dinner with his mom – bye-bye shithead! There’s so many fish in the sea, why bother with all the problems? Life’s too short and I’ve got better things to do then try to win over a bunch of narrow-minded people.

That’s what I was waiting to hear. It always always always boils down to guilt with family relationships here. Nevermind, love and respect because GUILT rules!

QM,
Should the gay marriage law pass here, will you and your BF be tieing the knot? I know you’ve been together for quite a few years now and the reason you’re here at all is because of him. So?

Geez, Flicka, that’s a pretty, uh?uncompromising attitude don’cha’think?

I dated someone once whose father didn’t exactly like me too much… we would get into arguments about stuff… and it just got to the point where it was understood that I would avoid contact with said father. I wasn’t about to make a “choose his side or mine” ultimatum out of it, and I didn’t think that the father being an asshole had much bearing on our relationship whatsoever.

Don’t know the specifics of your situation, but sounds like dude’s mom was a bit of a nutter and was going to be anything but happy about meeting you and that he was probably trying to avoid a nasty situation for all. Sounds like dude’s mom was the narrow-minded one, but for that it’s “see ya?later, no time for you, sorry ba-bye!” to the boyfriend? Must have been true love.

Shit, is tolerance something that should only be shown towards the gay community? Sounds like you could have shown some in that situation, if not for individuals, then at least for the individual’s family. As a prerequisite to dating you, must prospective mates provide some means of verification that their family will embrace you with open arms?

Another example. I have family that I visit, an aunt lets say. She lives in kind of a remote place where everybody is from English, Irish or Scottish ancestry… whities as far as the eye can see. Now this aunt is super-cool and the nicest and most accomodating person you’d ever expect to meet. Except for one thing… she will come out with some pretty ugy/racist comments on occasion… I attribute it to her rather closed surroundings (where such statements are the norm and go unnoticed). Now I guess, with your attitude, I should just say, “No time for you, silly woman. And go merrily on my way.” Shit! even my mother can say stuff that I don’t agree with and I find borderline racist.

No, akosh, that wasn’t the deal at all. This person wasn’t out to his mom and was terrified to even let me go to his house at all (which he paid for, BTW) because he was scared his mommy would get mad he was friends with a foreigner. I prefer to date grown men.

Why bother with tolerance if I can’t even get my foot in the door and have to hear, “You can come over when the time’s right” for months on end?" I’m worth more than that, every living soul is. No one has to embrace me with open arms, even if they are Journey fans, but some basic respect is nice.

I think with people like your aunt, you might not always want to hang around them, but you let them know you love them and are always there for them. But during the dating process, you have a right to weed out the men from the mommies boys, and move on.

I am surprised you asked this here. Seems awfully personal to ask in front of, well, everybody. But since you opened it up, umm, who would pop the question? (QM, I don’t mean to make light of your situation, so please ignore this if you are anything less than amused)

Flicka, hey fair enough. I misunderstood your situation, and read something else into your post that probablly wasn’t your meaning. I was just making the point that we can’t hold friends/lovers/people responsible for the intolerance or stupidity exhibited by their parents. After your elaboration, I don’t think you were suggesting such a thing. Fuck 'em.

My bf’s family are nothing if not respectful & polite, to my face. However, I know that they’d prefer I wasn’t in their sons life. There is an underlying current of tension when I go, part of which is the language barrier, the other part of which is the “gay thing.”

Also, he is not “terrified” of having me around. In fact, at one point, I told him that if it made things too difficult (between him and his family) for me to go with him to see his family, I would just stay home. His comment was, “You are important to me. They have to understand that. They have to get used to you and know you aren’t going anywhere.”

The only reason he hasn’t told them out right is out of respect for their desire to not “officially” know. Like I said before, it gives them a level of deniability that I think makes them comfortable. If they really want to know, he is really willing to tell them.

As for dropping someone because of their family… I guess you and I have different views. I see my bf as being worth all the shit with his family. Besides, we only plan on being here for another year or two. So, if all goes well, for most of our lives we won’t see his family but a few times a year… not a few times a month. :smiley:

Luckily, A doesn’t give in to the guilt as easily as some guys here. I remember one Saturday afternoon he called his mother to find out what the family was doing for dinner. She complained to him that he didn’t call her first thing in the morning. Apparently, she had wanted to go shopping and, of course, wanted him to drive her, even though it would have meant driving from Neihu to Sanzhih to pick her up, driving her down to Taipei and then driving her back after. He told her, “Because I went to play basketball. You know I always play basketball on Saturday.”
She continued to complain, saying that he still should have called her anyway. So he hung up on her. :smiling_imp:

We’ve been together for 3 years, as of this past October. And, emotionally/romantically, I’d marry him in a minute. As long as he says “yes,” of course. :stuck_out_tongue: But that, for me, doesn’t have to be a legal marriage.

Legally, I’d still be willing to marry him. But, before we’d make that legal commitment, I’d want to know what the “official” marriage will do for us. Will it give me a visa that is not tied to my job? Would it make it easier for us to emigrate to someplace like Canada? Etc… etc…

Lingchen… thanks for worrying about the personal nature of the question. I don’t mind, though. As for who would ask whom. Most likely I would be the one asking. I can’t really explain why… maybe 'cause I tend to be the more romantic one… All of my visions of us getting “engaged” have me doing the asking and him saying… “Hmmm… I’ll get back to you on that.” :laughing: Just kidding.

Since lots of us are apparently in gay cross-cultural, long term relationships here, it would be nice if we could discuss these and the issues involved. I mean, specifically on this, such things as how to make it work, rules about “extra-marital” sex, etc. Should we start a new thread, I wonder?

QM: Here lies the essential dilemma - nothing is EVER going to be completely representative of ALL gays and lesbians - but what’s the point of a parade if you’re not going to dress up? The media isn’t making a political point by focussing on drag queens and half naked men, they’re focussing on them because they’re visually interesting and more “newsworthy” than the Gay Lawyers in Suits group marching behind them - sure, they don’t represent you because they’re out there representing THEMSELVES while you’re on the sidelines, apparently hating it - come on, QM, parades are about showing diversity, not conformity, surely?

When Rio has the Mardi Gras, you don’t hear people complaining that girls in feather headresses and half-naked men aren’t “representative” of the citizens of Rio, gay or straight. Why is that? Because IT’S A PARTY!

And as for showing how some gay people are “as normal” as straights, well, forgive me, but don’t you mean “as boring”? :stuck_out_tongue:

And this from today’s TT: Drugs fuel gay lifestyle…

taipeitimes.com/News/world/a … 2003075330

No mention of those hard-working “normal” gays again. It’s just NOT news to pay tax, have a dog and keep a low profile, alas!

[quote=“magnolia”]QM: Here lies the essential dilemma - nothing is EVER going to be completely representative of ALL gays and lesbians - but what’s the point of a parade if you’re not going to dress up? The media isn’t making a political point by focussing on drag queens and half naked men, they’re focussing on them because they’re visually interesting and more “newsworthy” than the Gay Lawyers in Suits group marching behind them - sure, they don’t represent you because they’re out there representing THEMSELVES while you’re on the sidelines, apparently hating it - come on, QM, parades are about showing diversity, not conformity, surely?

When Rio has the Mardi Gras, you don’t hear people complaining that girls in feather headresses and half-naked men aren’t “representative” of the citizens of Rio, gay or straight. Why is that? Because IT’S A PARTY!

And as for showing how some gay people are “as normal” as straights, well, forgive me, but don’t you mean “as boring”? :P[/quote]
Sigh… I knew I was going to get slammed by someone for what I said. It was inevitable.

First, I am, by no means, saying that something should or can be representative of all gays and lesbians. This diversity among the gay community is exactly my point in expressing my opinion about the parades and the name of the (apparently not to be) forum. Unfortunately, many straight people are not familiar with that diversity. Rather, all they often see (and, therefore know of) are those members of the community that fit a certain stereotype of what a gay man or lesbian is. Therefore, those images, visually interesting or not, just serve to reinforce that stereotype. And, in doing so, can server to reinforce their prejudices. For this reason, I think that anything that purports to represent the gay community as a whole, which most parades purport to do, should be as representative as possible.

Second, I don’t think the purpose of a parade is necessarily to dress up and have fun. That is certainly one purpose. However, parades can have many purposes, depending on the needs of the participants. I believe, as the name seems to imply, the original purpose of the parades was to show pride – i.e., to show people that gays are an integral and diverse part of their community, from the policeman in their neighborhood to the drag queen in their building. Perhaps that is not the parades purpose now, as many of them are changing to “mardi gras.”

Third, if the purpose of a parade is to show people that gays are out there, whether they know it (like it?) or not. Then, I still think it is a shame that the media has to focus so much attention on the half-naked men and/or drag queens instead of the lawyers, police officers, fire fighters, etc… I think the “normal” groups would be a lot more shocking for many straight people to see, since they go against the stereotypes they hold of gay people. So, in my opinion, the gay lawyers behind the drag queens should be more “newsworthy.” (By the way, I never said that the media was being political. Try not to put words in my mouth.)

Fourth, I have attended (yes, on the sidelines) a few Pride Parades. I have not, in any way, “hated it,” as you suggest. In fact, I have found them to be a blast. I loved watching the half-naked men and the drag queens. I am planning more parades/mardi gras in the years to come. And, I would even consider participating in one directly.

Fifth, though, I believe you were joking, the use of the term “normal” was not in any way intended to indicate “boring.” Again, I think there is a tremendous amount of diversity in the gay community. Just because some people prefer a quieter, simpler life than you apparently do, does not make them boring.

However, a better way to express myself would probably have been to say, “To show straight people that there is as much diversity in the gay community as in the straight people. We have people who like to go to bars and people who like to stay home, people who are butch (both men and women) and people who are feminine (again, both men and women), etc… just like in the straight community.”

Sixth, I believe that everyone has the right to live their lives the way they see fit (as long as they don’t hurt others or infringe on other’s rights). In doing so, they have the right to “represent” themselves anyway they see fit. If you (or anyone) wants to dance half-naked in the streets during the parade, that is fine. I have no problem with that.

Finally, if you think I’m being a little sensitive on this. I admit I probably am. But, I’m tired of gay people who talk about diversity and accepting differences but judge others in the gay community, like myself, as boring, etc… just because we don’t enjoy or do the same things they enjoy or do.