The ridiculous legacy of the Bush (II) administration

This doesn’t make it acceptable, and indeed, such restrictions can also be the reason that a power-hungry leader initiates a war. This has happened throughout history by dictators and despots.

All of which were later found to be illegal or unconscionable acts. The interment of the Japanese in WWII, for instance, is a shameful part of American history. It’s not something to be looked back on and emulated. It’s something to look back on and say “Never again”.

Now that is a most disingenuous “argument”. And it’s no excuse for illegal, evil or un-American policy. We managed to defeat the Axis powers in WWII without resorting to torture or barbarism (the shameful Japanese interment excepted).

Freedom should never be curtailed, even during war. And torture is absolutely never acceptable. We cannot stoop the the level of those who would harm us, because of we do, we become no better than they are.

I haven’t seen any trials or punishment meted out to terrs who were cutting throats or executing people in the middle of the road Spook.
ow about giving them a call and asking ‘Whats up with that?’

We stop the behavior. I still see suicide/murder bombers going into crowds for the terrs. Yet, I don;t see you complaining about that aspect. I don’t recall you penning any words of outrage over IED fatalities…did I miss them?

Why the crocodile tears about actions that the US soundly condemned and punished those responsible for?
What the % in that?

The ‘standards’ have been pretty darn clear. Got a mote in yer eye?

of course it is, because Al Gore invented it.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]I haven’t seen any trials or punishment meted out to terrs who were cutting throats or executing people in the middle of the road Spook.
ow about giving them a call and asking ‘Whats up with that?’

We stop the behavior. I still see suicide/murder bombers going into crowds for the terrs. Yet, I don;t see you complaining about that aspect. I don’t recall you penning any words of outrage over IED fatalities…did I miss them?

Why the crocodile tears about actions that the US soundly condemned and punished those responsible for?
What the % in that?

The ‘standards’ have been pretty darn clear. Got a mote in yer eye?[/quote]

Terrorists are evil people and need to be brought to justice. Like that Osama bin Laden guy. You remember him, right?

I’m just wondering what we’ve – or rather, you’ve – become in the process of seeking security though. My line is that I , because I lack sufficient courage to go beyond it, still stop at what we call “crimes against humanity” but you and Chewy (if I understand correctly) don’t. Do you guys stop at any line now in pursuit of security and, if so, what is that line? In other words, is there anything you wouldn’t do just so long as it’s working?

[quote=“spook”]I’m just wondering what we’ve – or rather, you’ve – become in the process of seeking security though. My line is that I , because I lack sufficient courage to go beyond it, still stop at what we call “crimes against humanity” but you and Chewy (if I understand correctly) don’t. Do you guys stop at any line now in pursuit of security and, if so, what is that line?[/quote]Quite a blatant mis-representation of my views Spook. But I guess it accomplishes your aim, eh?
I’ve made it very clear my position on this war. And I’ve also posted quite numerous time stating my opposition to the use of ‘torture’ and my reason why.
I know, that doesn’t fit into your ‘view’ of things…but thats the facts…which you so conveniently ‘forget’ when needed.

  • we shuld not have completely dis-banded the Iraqui Army.
  • Sunni/Shi’ia…we did what we had to do. Hindsight is f*cking 20/20…we have to deal with it and its being dealt with.
  • Iraq is not in a civil war; but it is under attack by outside interests with a lot of money and weapons to throw. And unless this is dealt with it will continue.
  • Iraq is better now and continues to get better.
  • You want perfection - Talk to Jesus.

[quote=“spook”]In other words, is there anything you wouldn’t do just so long as it’s working?[/quote]So its now in your interest to paint me, I can’t speak for Chewey, as devoid of reason, logic, compassion and a view of the long game?
This ain’t a discussion on your part, its an attack. Anything I respond with is a defense. Why is that?
Tell us how you really feel.

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
You’re not an ignorant person chewie, but you can only believe such a thing in the abstract. has shown that the torture program of the Bush admin (in addition to being illegal) has produced nothing but dead ends, false leads, and makes prosecution of true terrorists that much harder. Resistance to torture began with the military, with people dedicated to, and experienced in, protecting their country. I’ll take their word that it does’t work and is counter-productive over aging neocons looking to prove how tough they are.

What has happened to conservatives that they now embrace the executive’s right to torture and imprison anyone (including his own countrymen) without oversite and clearly against the laws and customs of the land?[/quote]

Restrictions have always been put on civil liberties in a time of war or perceived war. Happened during the Civil War (suspension of Habeas Corpus), World War I (against the Commies in the US), World War II (Against the Japanese Americans), in Canada under Trudeau during the FLQ Crisis (War Measures Act, which saw the arrest of hundreds of people but stopped Quebec seperatism from taking too violent a path) and during the War in Iraq. Personally, I think during any type of war againt a terrorist entity you have to define Habeaus Corpus and torture obligations narrowly. Again, when you are a world superpower engaged in a war against a fundamentalist enemy, you have to play on their level to a certain degree to be able to defeat them. I think most Israeli civilians must feel a lot safer at night knowing that their Mossad/Shin Bet services are doing a good job at what they do. Likewise, for the intelligence agencies in the US. I think they should have the power to use these interrogation techniques if they deem them necessary. And since America hasn’t been attacked in a major terrorist attack since 9-11, I think these methods have proven to be somewhat effective. Let’s give John Yoo a “Profiles in Courage Award.” :bravo: :bravo:[/quote]

Do we have to go over this every fuckign 6 months? Bush created a secret torture program that they denied and still deny is just that.

Historical comparisons are weak as the war against Iraq was a war of choice. It’s seriousness can be understand when we see there was no draft, and trhe president said the average person’s contribution could be to go out and shop.

As for the war on terror, it has no end. Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus, and Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act, to temporarily deal with a crises. A crises that had a defineble end. Trudeau further ensured that anyone rounded up had access to lawyers and would be permitted to sue if abuses were discovered. In other words he was entirely transparent about it and worked within the law. He also quickly brought back full liberties within a few months.

Bush has used the war on terror to permanently expand executive power, and to claim that anything he does is lawful simply because he is doing it. The Office of Legal Counsil who advised him on these matters knew full well they were giving bogus advise. They did so anyway, and the reputation of te AG and the OLC is at rock bottom.

The torture program was also flat out illegal and no you can’t define torture differently in times of war at least not if you are going to pretend to follow your own laws and treaty obligations.

A certain loss of civil liberties is expected during a war, yes. A complete break with western traditions regarding the decent treatment of prisoners is not. An dictatorial expansion of executive power to detain anyone at will is not. Allowing the grunts at Abu Ghraib to be court martialled for doing the bidding of their president is beyond reproach.

John Yoo is a war criminal. You, have lost your moral bearings to even suggest he be anything but reviled.

Likewise people like cctang sleep well knowing and giving full consent to what their government does to ensure the peace. Let’s clap our hands for the Red Army. :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”]I’m just wondering what we’ve – or rather, you’ve – become in the process of seeking security though. My line is that I , because I lack sufficient courage to go beyond it, still stop at what we call “crimes against humanity” but you and Chewy (if I understand correctly) don’t. Do you guys stop at any line now in pursuit of security and, if so, what is that line?[/quote]Quite a blatant mis-representation of my views Spook. But I guess it accomplishes your aim, eh?
I’ve made it very clear my position on this war. And I’ve also posted quite numerous time stating my opposition to the use of ‘torture’ and my reason why.
I know, that doesn’t fit into your ‘view’ of things…but thats the facts…which you so conveniently ‘forget’ when needed.

  • we shuld not have completely dis-banded the Iraqui Army.
  • Sunni/Shi’ia…we did what we had to do. Hindsight is f*cking 20/20…we have to deal with it and its being dealt with.
  • Iraq is not in a civil war; but it is under attack by outside interests with a lot of money and weapons to throw. And unless this is dealt with it will continue.
  • Iraq is better now and continues to get better.
  • You want perfection - Talk to Jesus.

[quote=“spook”]In other words, is there anything you wouldn’t do just so long as it’s working?[/quote]So its now in your interest to paint me, I can’t speak for Chewey, as devoid of reason, logic, compassion and a view of the long game?
This ain’t a discussion on your part, its an attack. Anything I respond with is a defense. Why is that?
Tell us how you really feel.[/quote]

Okay. I was wrong. You oppose torture. I think you need some cookies and milk. You seem a little tense these days.

TC has always opposed torture and has taken a principled stand against it as long as anyone else but Bush authorizes it.

If Obama wins, Bush’s legacy will be an unnecessary war and rampant corruption and the dismantling of government checks and balances.
If McCain wins, Bush’s legacy will be the greatest leader of the 21st century and founder of the Democratic Republic of USA World Government of the People. All hail mighty leader Bush and glorious successor Jeb, servants of the people’s will!

So correct me if I’m wrong, but Chewy’s reasoning is:

Basically, as long as we don’t have another terrorist attack in the US (for whatever reason), we may assume it was a direct result of White House policies and decisions. Ergo, anything goes and things may continue, because presumably that is a effective & pragmatic approach to the terrorism issue.

So in your eyes, Honest Abe, Woodrow Wilson, FDR etc would be considered as dictators and despots? Hmmm, I think that clearly identifies how far out of the mainstream your politics are.

Suppported by most liberals in California.

I’m not sure if civilians in Hiroshima, Tokyo or Dresden would agree with you. Of course, I would have supported the use of nuclear weapons and firebombings if I had lived at the time. It was to defeat a much greater evil. Just as it is today. :wink:

Suppported by most liberals in California.[/quote]Point?

The interesting thing about Korematsu and the legacy of the Japanese-American internment (despite the fact that the Army destroyed incriminating evidence which might have changed the Supreme Court’s backing of the military action.

[quote]
It is important to note that the rulings of the US Supreme Court in the 1944 Korematsu and Hirabayashi cases, specifically, its expansive interpretation of government powers in wartime, were not overturned. They are still the law of the land because a lower court cannot overturn a ruling by the US Supreme Court. However, the coram nobis cases totally undermined the factual underpinnings of the 1944 cases, leaving the original decisions without the proverbial legal leg to stand on.[46] But in light of the fact that these 1944 decisions are still on the books, a number of legal scholars have expressed the opinion that the original Korematsu and Hirabayashi decisions have taken on an added relevance in the context of the War on terror.[/quote]

[quote=“Muzha Man”] Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act, to temporarily deal with a crises. A crises that had a defineble end. Trudeau further ensured that anyone rounded up had access to lawyers and would be permitted to sue if abuses were discovered. In other words he was entirely transparent about it and worked within the law. He also quickly brought back full liberties within a few months.

[/quote]

A lot of Quebec activists were still roughed up big time. And the War Measures Act was brought in because of only two kidnappings and one death. Trudeau’s famous “Just watch me” was brought in for only one death, right? How do you think he would have reacted to a much bigger threat?

What’s the moral difference between incinerating a 100,000 men, women and children from the air or setting off a car bomb among them, blowing a 100 men, women and children to bits?

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“Muzha Man”] Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act, to temporarily deal with a crises. A crises that had a defineble end. Trudeau further ensured that anyone rounded up had access to lawyers and would be permitted to sue if abuses were discovered. In other words he was entirely transparent about it and worked within the law. He also quickly brought back full liberties within a few months.

[/quote]A lot of Quebec activists were still roughed up big time. [/quote]

So? People are roughed up by the police all the time. That they have recourse against such actions is what’s relevant.

I have no idea and neither do you. I do know that Bush used 911 to justify an expansion of executive powers that are little short of dictatorial, something Cheney had been after since his experience with Nixon’s fall from grace. He did not appear to have done so on good faith, that is, because he felt it was a necessary move at the time. You can’t keep making comparisons with leaders who suspended civil liberties for short periods of time (and were completely open about it) with Bush, who wants to get rid of them effectively for the rest of our lives and wants to do so without debate and without oversite.

As for torture, again, let Bush come out clean with what he has done and justify it. Right now there are people in jail because they were following a policy of torture that began at the top with the president. Does not even this make you angry?

Why are you so willing to let the executive break the law and claim powers that only dictators claim? Why are you so willing to do so now when the threat of terrorism has been shown to be exaggerated? I can live with a bombing once a year if it means I enjoy the same freedoms I always did. If the bombs start falling once a week then we can talk. But right now you are giving away too much in return for a protection you probably don’t need. Quit running scared and blind.

I went and cobbled together this thread’s original post from a variety of utterly unrelated sources, now I read this. Maybe it’s something in the air.

[quote=“The Economist: Pulling back the blanket”][color=green]“THERE is no longer any doubt as to whether the current [Bush] administration has committed war crimes,” Antonio Taguba, a retired American general who conducted the first investigation into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, declares in a new report on the maltreatment of detainees: “The only question that remains is…whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”[/color]

As George Bush’s presidency draws to a close, many others in his administration, including Mr Bush himself, may be asking the same. Like all heads of state and government, along with many of their senior officials, the American president enjoys wide immunity from both criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits, at home and abroad, while he remains in office. But once he goes, so does much of his protection. And though nobody expects Mr Bush to face legal problems at home, it is just possible that in some other country, a prosecutor (or a private citizen initiating a civil suit) will try to hold him to account for America’s record in Iraq and elsewhere.
[…]
Traditionally, government leaders have enjoyed two types of legal protection when abroad: functional immunity, shielding them for life from prosecution in the domestic courts of other countries for acts carried out as part of their official duties; and personal immunity, protecting them from prosecution in foreign courts for all acts while in office—“irrespective of their gravity”, as the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled in 2002—but only for as long as they stay in power.

But a growing school of thought is challenging the idea that important folk should be deemed “more equal than others” before the law. The argument that some crimes merit no immunity is almost a century old. Provision was made in the 1919 Versailles Treaty for the defeated German emperor to be tried for “a supreme offence against international morality”. In 1945 the Nuremberg tribunals likewise refused to absolve Nazi leaders of responsibility for war crimes and other atrocities.
[…]
But the ICC, set up under the 1998 Rome Statute, does not have unlimited jurisdiction. It can only prosecute international crimes involving at least one country that has signed up to the court. Although 106 countries have joined that list, America has not; nor has Zimbabwe. This means that Mr Mugabe could not be prosecuted by the ICC unless there was a referral to the court by the Security Council, as happened with Sudan, which is not a party either. It is not clear that recent events in Zimbabwe, however awful, amount to a “crime against humanity”, defined by the ICC’s statute as a “widespread or systematic attack” on civilians. But if the court did take up the case, Mr Mugabe would be equally vulnerable, in or out of office, given the lack of immunity for such crimes.

[color=blue]There is no technical reason why the ICC should not try to go after Mr Bush, in the unlikely event that it found America was guilty of atrocities in Afghanistan (which is a party to the court, while Iraq is not.)[/color][Afghanistan signed up 10 Feb 2003.]

However, there is another way that the leaders of countries that have stayed out of the ICC could be prosecuted, despite their head-of-state immunity. That is by means of the principle known as universal jurisdiction. This allows states to prosecute international crimes such as genocide, torture and crimes against humanity in their own domestic courts, even when they have no link with the perpetrator, victims or site of the crime.
[…]
The once-cosy blanket of immunity is starting to look rather threadbare.[/quote]

That bit in blue got me wondering why Iraq isn’t a party to the ICC. The original vote on the ICC was held in 1998, while Saddam was still running the show, and I can see why he wouldn’t have supported it.

[quote=“Wikipedia”]
Following years of negotiations, the General Assembly convened a conference in Rome in June 1998, with the aim of finalising a treaty. On July 17, 1998, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court was adopted by a vote of 120 to 7, with 21 countries abstaining. The seven countries that voted against the treaty were Iraq, Israel, Libya, the People’s Republic of China, Qatar, the United States, and Yemen.
[/quote]But why hasn’t the new Iraqi government joined the ICC?

It almost did.

[quote=“Radio Free Europe Radio Liberty: 2 March 2005”]Iraq Pulls Out Of International Criminal Court
Iraq’s interim government has revoked its decision to adhere to the International Criminal Court, which it had announced just two weeks ago.
State television says that Iraq pulled back from the court today. It offered no explanation.[/quote]Too bad, because if the Iraqis hadn’t suddenly changed reversed course, they’d be a party to the court, and the court would acquire jurisdiction over crimes committed in the country.

In fact, a number of complaints have been lodged with the prosecutor of the ICC in connection with the latest war in Iraq, but in connection to the acts of personnel whose countries are signatories. If Iraq joined, personnel from all states acting in country would be at risk (of being held to account… kind of a strange phrase, imho).

In case this sounds like a bunch of silly, unfounded spin, the possible consequences have obviously been considered at the highest level of the government.

Gee, look at these dates. What a coincidence.[quote=“Commondreams.org: 23 June 2004”]Faced with the prospect of a humiliating defeat, the United States abandoned its proposal to seek Security Council exemption for U.S. soldiers from possible war crime charges in future U.N. peacekeeping operations overseas.

Unable to muster the necessary nine votes in the 15-member Security Council, Washington jettisoned the draft resolution Wednesday following widespread opposition from an overwhelming majority of member states.

”We were told that 11 out of 15 countries had threatened to abstain on the vote,” Bill Pace, convenor of the Coalition for the International Criminal Court (CICC), told IPS.
[…]
[U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan] told reporters last week that he had ”quite strongly” spoken against the exemption, ”and I think it would be unfortunate for one to press for such an exemption, given the prisoner abuse in Iraq.”

”I think in this circumstance it would be unwise to press for an exemption, and it would be even more unwise on the part of the Security Council to grant it. It would discredit the Council and the United Nations that stands for rule of law and the primacy of rule of law,” he added. [/quote][quote=“Washington Post: 24 June 2004”] The Bush administration has decided to take the unusual step of bestowing on its own troops and personnel immunity from prosecution by Iraqi courts for killing Iraqis or destroying local property after the occupation ends and political power is transferred to an interim Iraqi government, U.S. officials said.

The administration plans to accomplish that step – which would bypass the most contentious remaining issue before the transfer of power – by extending an order that has been in place during the year-long occupation of Iraq. Order 17 gives all foreign personnel in the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority immunity from “local criminal, civil and administrative jurisdiction and from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their parent states.”

U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer is expected to extend Order 17 as one of his last acts before shutting down the occupation next week, U.S. officials said. The order is expected to last an additional six or seven months, until the first national elections are held. [/quote]

Yeah, I think the proposition that Bush will face prosecution for war crimes will make a pretty good long bet. Of course, he didn’t even have a passport before being elected to the Oval Office, and may never again travel outside the country… adding a layer of safety. And however much public opinion and the political environment change, it’s unlikely that he’ll face charges for war crimes in the US, so maybe I should expand the scope of the wager to include the impeachment option (possible even after he’s out of office).

Given the veterans and former soldiers in this forum, I wonder how one would feel if he or she were Tillman’s parents.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_ … endly_fire

Suppported by most liberals in California.[/quote]

Not in my lifetime.