The 'safe' airline

[quote]Oxygen masks ‘failed to work’ on damaged Qantas flight

It’s been revealed that frantic passengers struggled to use faulty oxygen masks as Qantas flight QF30 dropped 5791.20m when an explosion ripped a hole in the plane’s fuselage.

QF30 was on its way to Melbourne from London via Hong Kong and was due to arrive in Melbourne on Friday evening.

Passengers arriving at Melbourne International Airport yesterday told of desperate attempts to put their passports in their pockets in case the plane crashed, of children turning blue as their mothers frantically tried to fit their oxygen masks, and of 10 minutes of sheer terror as the plane dived.

As passengers were reunited with loved ones, aviation experts offered several theories about possible causes of the mid-air explosion, including:

• Oxygen cylinders rupturing;

• corrosion and weakening of the plane’s aluminium skin, making it susceptible to bursting under the enormous pressure of cruising at altitude;

• a deliberate or accidental explosion caused by something in a passenger’s luggage.

However, a source close to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said exploding oxygen cylinders were the likely cause of the rupture, and would be the main focus of the investigation, as they were stored in the exact location of the explosion and there were no signs of fire.

St Kilda architect David Saunders described the moments after the explosion as utter panic.

“The oxygen masks were f––d,” Mr Saunders told The Sunday Age at Melbourne International Airport, after an emotional reunion with his mother and sister.

“The elastic was so old that it had deteriorated. I was trying to get my passport, and every time I got my passport the mask fell off and I started to pass out.”

In some parts of the cabin, the masks didn’t drop down at all, he said.

"A guy just went into a panic and smashed the whole panel off the ceiling to get to the mask.

“The kids were screaming and flailing. Their cheeks and lips were turning blue from lack of oxygen.”

Another passenger, Paula Madejon, said she had to share her mask with two other people, and, in the row behind her, nobody had a mask.[/quote]

stuff.co.nz/4632939a12.html

Quantas is the airline that’s never had a crash, right?

What a horrific story this is. Thank god everyone was okay. It would be awfully tough to want to get on another flight right after that one though!

Class action lawsuit. Huge award. Other airlines who are also dangerously lackadaisical wake the fuck up.

I can hope anyway.

Aren’t they supposed to have some set SOP’s for testing if the oxygen masks work or not?

At least nobody died.

what on earth for? nobody was injured, the plane landed safely enough.

and as for the four oxygen masks that failed to deploy (one row), they were successfully manually deployed by a stewie within a reasonable time so again there was no damage. where’s the grounds for a class action?

quaintarse is not the world’s safest airline any more, i guess, and they must be facing severe cost cutting pressure in the face of high oil prices, just like all other airlines. i hope this was an unavoidable accident rather than a sign of shoddy maintenance.

they are not my preferred carrier any more, anyway. they were good once before they became too concerned with cramming every last possible passenger into the plane.

[quote=“Mer”]Quantas is the airline that’s never had a crash, right?

What a horrific story this is. Thank god everyone was okay. It would be awfully tough to want to get on another flight right after that one though![/quote]

Over dramatized for the mass hysterical media…

The video shots taken by passengers don’t show any panic and no screaming or hysteria amongst pasangers…

It was only after landing and passangers saw the damage that they felt life may have been endangered.

You can thank other crashes that were caused by similar incidents, for leading to strengthening of the floor strucures when decompression occurs so the plane doesnt get ripped apart.

Plus the pilots are trained for these events and obviously landed the plane safely.

I think the Apollo 13 mission crew had a much scarier ride home after their oxygen tanks exploded.

My brother used to work as an engineer for Ansett, one of Australia’s main airlines (before they lost all their money in a price war and collapsed). Australia’s air safety regulations are among the most demanding in the world, which is one of the reasons why air travel in Australia is so expensive (the airlines have to pay huge amounts of money to keep their aircraft in order).

So what do airlines do in the aftermath of a costly price war? Outsource maintenance to cheap offshore third parties, where the regulations aren’t as strict and maintenance crews aren’t as well trained or experienced. Such economic rationalism has its risks of course.

However, a recent survey of 40 airlines showed that in the Asia Pacific region Qantas is still one of the most trusted airlines, along with Singapore, Cathay, and Air NZ.

None mid-air but they had some incidents and at least on-ground crash when a plane overshot the runway (in 1999), though none caused any casualties AFAIK.

[quote=“Satellite TV”]Over dramatized for the mass hysterical media…

The video shots taken by passengers don’t show any panic and no screaming or hysteria amongst pasangers…

It was only after landing and passangers saw the damage that they felt life may have been endangered.[/quote]
That’s not quite what the people on board tell, and the video may have taken after the initial chaos:

[quote]Debra Manchester, a passenger in first class, said there was a “huge bang” and a “massive rush of wind,” with debris swirling around the cabin. Mrs Manchester, a housewife from Buckinghamshire, said there was an atmosphere of chaos as passengers struggled to put their oxygen masks on.

"Newspapers and what looked like part of the ceiling flew past me. We didn’t know what was happening to the plane. After a while things calmed down and there was a deadly silence. There was still debris all around our feet but we all started to feel a bit safer when we could take our masks off," she said.

[…]

The passengers praised the actions of the pilot and crew. Mr McClements, 45, said: "The crew were terrific, they were really good, they kept everyone calm and told people what to do and helped people with their masks and things. Their reactions had a very calm effect on the other passengers.[/quote]
Source

Yes at atmosphere of chaos with newspapers and debris flying around the cabin, not panic and hysteria… the crew had a calming effect.

Huge difference between chaos and panic or hysteria.

[quote]Qantas plane forced to turn back
A Qantas jet was forced to make an emergency landing at Adelaide airport last night after a door opened during a flight to Melbourne.

The incident came just three days after a hole was blasted in the fuselage of a Qantas 747 during an international flight to Melbourne, forcing it to land in Manila.

The Melbourne-bound Boeing 737-800 departed Adelaide at 6.08pm yesterday and returned 37 minutes later, News Ltd reported today.

Passengers said a door had opened and caused “chaos” in the cabin.

Rocco Russo told the ABC he heard a rattling noise about 10 minutes after take-off.

He says the pilot told passengers there was a problem with a door closing above the plane’s wheel.

“He then continued to fly and said that he was going to contact the engineers and then a few minutes after that came back on and said the engineers had gotten back to him and the advice was to return to Adelaide,” he said.

Qantas sources said a door had not closed properly over a wheel bay and the aircraft turned back near Murray Bridge, south-east of Adelaide.

The jet remained in Adelaide while passengers were transferred to another flight.

The incident follows the naming of Jetstar boss Alan Joyce yesterday as the new chief executive of parent company Qantas.

Mr Joyce takes over from Geoff Dixon on November 28.[/quote]

stuff.co.nz/4635262a12.html

We live in a cynical world. If the plane had crashed they would have been outrage, when the pilot and the flight attendants do an awesome job and everyone is saved, there is still outrage.
If I were on that flight I would have sent a card to Quantas and thank them, only vultures would think of degrading the crew or thinking of a law suit.
What a world we live in!

I haven’t seen outrage at the crew or attendants, quite the opposite.

So, if a plane you were flying on had a 10ft hole blown in a side of it due to suspected maintenance issues, you’d send a thank you card?

[quote=“Truant”]I haven’t seen outrage at the crew or attendants, quite the opposite.

So, if a plane you were flying on had a 10ft hole blown in a side of it due to suspected maintenance issues, you’d send a thank you card?[/quote]

Certainly not to the airline.

How do you usually check for stuff like that?

Well, personally I hate Qantarse with a vengeance, but my major gripe is the way those nasty Nancy boy air stewards all plough into their little staff compartment for some cottaging as soon as the flight’s up and steady and ignore any pleas for a second let alone a third drink.

Now imagine post near disaster? Like a drink to take the edge of the nerves? Not a chance. They’d all be back in their little cottaging area whining how, “Oh Bruce, I thought we were all dead! Oh what the fark do those awful passenger people want now?”

Of course, the problems with Qantarse maintenance probably have something to do with it being the natural inheritor of all those redundant NZ Air Force ground crew.

HG

[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“Truant”]I haven’t seen outrage at the crew or attendants, quite the opposite.

So, if a plane you were flying on had a 10ft hole blown in a side of it due to suspected maintenance issues, you’d send a thank you card?[/quote]

Certainly not to the airline.

How do you usually check for stuff like that?[/quote]
That is an interesting question. Currently, the media are saying that the airline is checking all 747 crew oxygen bottles. But the main point at this stage is they don’t know what actually caused the explosion, only that one of the bottles is missing. The assumption is that the bottle exploded.
The engineers checking all the crew oxygen bottles probably have nothing specific they are looking for, other than to see if any of the others are in any way defective as far as they can tell.

My guess about this situation relates to scuba tanks. There have been occasions where a scuba tank has had it’s valve knocked off and Newtons 3rd law (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction) has come into play resulting in the tank shooting thru concrete walls etc before coming to a rest. It’s not technically an explosion in that case.

So, coming back to the crew oxygen bottle. The bottle has 2000 psi of pure oxygen in it (media report). If the tank fitting were to be knocked to the point of breakage, then I would think that it would depart very rapidly out the side, and no amount of primary structure would really slow it down. I also heard on the media that there have been concerns in the past regarding the attachments of these bottles and specific instructions exist to check these. So thinking about the scenario, it is possible that if the bottle wasn’t secure in it’s attachment, turbulence may have been enough to bang the end fitting to the point of breakage. That’s just a theory I thought about just now.

However, consider this: Pure oxygen under pressure combined with any oil or grease results in spontaneous combustion. Having intense Oxygen under pressure (as in 2000 PSI would be enough to support a combustion of anything (literally) even traditionally fireproof type items such as metal structure.
It appears that there was no combustion during this incident, so if my theory above is plausible and the tank blew out the side of the aircraft as a result of propulsion of the escaping gas, they were very lucky.

But sir, that lifted the engineering standards. The only problems that result from bringing in the legendary ex RNZAF guys is the old unionized grumps get shown up. That DOES create problems, you’re right. :wink:

[quote=“Truant”]

That is an interesting question. Currently, the media are saying that the airline is checking all 747 crew oxygen bottles. But the main point at this stage is they don’t know what actually caused the explosion, only that one of the bottles is missing. The assumption is that the bottle exploded.
The engineers checking all the crew oxygen bottles probably have nothing specific they are looking for, other than to see if any of the others are in any way defective as far as they can tell.

My guess about this situation relates to scuba tanks. There have been occasions where a scuba tank has had it’s valve knocked off and Newtons 3rd law (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction) has come into play resulting in the tank shooting thru concrete walls etc before coming to a rest. It’s not technically an explosion in that case.

So, coming back to the crew oxygen bottle. The bottle has 2000 psi of pure oxygen in it (media report). If the tank fitting were to be knocked to the point of breakage, then I would think that it would depart very rapidly out the side, and no amount of primary structure would really slow it down. I also heard on the media that there have been concerns in the past regarding the attachments of these bottles and specific instructions exist to check these. So thinking about the scenario, it is possible that if the bottle wasn’t secure in it’s attachment, turbulence may have been enough to bang the end fitting to the point of breakage. That’s just a theory I thought about just now.

However, consider this: Pure oxygen under pressure combined with any oil or grease results in spontaneous combustion. Having intense Oxygen under pressure (as in 2000 PSI would be enough to support a combustion of anything (literally) even traditionally fireproof type items such as metal structure.
It appears that there was no combustion during this incident, so if my theory above is plausible and the tank blew out the side of the aircraft as a result of propulsion of the escaping gas, they were very lucky.[/quote]

If you are correct, everybody onboard the plane should be very happy to be alive.

Would an exploded oxygen bottle leave marks, which a bottle which merely left the airplane through the side at a 2000PSI wouldn’t leave?

I assume that it’s impossible to get to the bottle itself along with the debris which was shot out, however I would assume that an explosion would leave more damage behind than merely a botthe shooting outn through the fuselage. Moreover, if the bottle disintegrated, bits and pieces of it would be found in the plane?

An exploding bottle would leave brownish marks in the undies of most of the pax.

[quote=“Truant”]I haven’t seen outrage at the crew or attendants, quite the opposite.

So, if a plane you were flying on had a 10ft hole blown in a side of it due to suspected maintenance issues, you’d send a thank you card?[/quote]
I think you’re misreading my post, on purpose or not. I am sure you are smart enough to understand what I meant.
Yes, I’d send a card, for obvious reasons.

[quote=“igorveni”][quote=“Truant”]I haven’t seen outrage at the crew or attendants, quite the opposite.

So, if a plane you were flying on had a 10ft hole blown in a side of it due to suspected maintenance issues, you’d send a thank you card?[/quote]
I think you’re misreading my post, on purpose or not. I am sure you are smart enough to understand what I meant.
Yes, I’d send a card, for obvious reasons.[/quote]
Well, no malice intended. If it was me, and I was impressed with an individual’s performance then I’d send a card to them individually, not to the airline, especially if the incident was proven to be a result of poor maintenance.