(Note to mod: I almost put this in Business and money, but then didn’t. I figured we should see where the thread goes before deciding where it goes.)
Something that’s been bugging me for a while.
Back in the real world the process of selling something to someone has been refined into a science. You lead the client through a logical process which takes them step-by-step to the inevitable conclusion that they have to buy whatever it is you’re selling. At each step of the way you check the client’s understanding, agreement, and gain a commitment to continuing the process so that they have no argument when the time comes to close the deal.
Of course there’s much more to it than that but these two aspects are what concern me here: the logical, stepwise, approach and the gaining of commitment with each step.
It seems to me that this part of the world does not think in the same way. In my experience it’s very rare that, for instance, an MBA-candidate will be able to produce a structured argument for or against anything. People don’t seem to think things though. And then there’s the whole question of attitudes to honesty, commitment, and to holding people to commitments.
If the customer won’t admit that he doesn’t agree with or follow what you’re telling him, will agree to anything you say to avoid conflict, and will be offended when you hold him to his word, then the ‘tried and tested’ formulas taught in the western world are not going to work.
I’ve discussed ‘the sales process’ as I was taught it with students in company classes, and they always express surprise that such a thing exists. I’ve tried it out on wannabe-IELTS students who think they know what they want, with little success. And I’ve observed sales people at work here, although I don’t follow the language well enough to have an informed opinion about that.
It seems that sales here is basically a matter of bludgeoning away at your customer, overwhelming them with information until you find a hot button or they just give up - or walk off. Can anybody with better information please tell me I’m wrong?
How do Taiwanese companies ever manage to sell anything overseas?
How does anyone ever manage to sell anything to Taiwanese companies?
I’m going to preempt Vannyel here…
Stop imposing a foreign system of thinking and culture on Taiwanese business people here. You have no right to expect them to conform to a foreign system foisted on them by imperialist christian missionary zealots.
Who’s imposing anything? I am simply observing that something which works where I come from doesn’t work here, and wondering out loud how people go about doing things their own way.
What is their way? And how do they/we manage when the two cultures collide?
Taiwan has what could be called a high-context culture, it possesses characteristisc such as, but not limited to:
Relationships between trading parties are very important (e.g. quanxi), and relatively long lasting
Communication is often implict
Agreements tend to be spoken rather than written, and as you noted, people don’t like to be held against their words
In contrast, US and other more advanced Western countries have low-context cultures, with characteristics like:
Relationships between individuals are relatively short, usually only lasts as long as is required for the deal to go through
Messages are explicit (e.g. people say exactly what they mean, and if they say they’ll do something, they are expected to do it)
Agreements tend to be in writing rather than spoken
If you are interested, there are extensive academic literatures on culture conflicts and how to do business across cultures, try searching on one of those online journal databases. Good luck.
[quote=“stragbasher”]Who’s imposing anything? I am simply observing that something which works where I come from doesn’t work here, and wondering out loud how people go about doing things their own way.
What is their way? And how do they/we manage when the two cultures collide?[/quote]
I was being very sarcastic. It’s a similar issue to doing business in Japan: all the nodding heads and “hai”(yes) means “I’m listening to you” not “you have a deal”. You need to talk to people here before you go it alone.
This is kind of a funny thread, considering that after purchase service is nonexistant. How do the relationships last longer than one purchase?? A case in point, I used to buy all of my camera gear from a shop in Hsinchu, nice guys, good prices. However, they were only interested in the big sales, and started lieing about the availability of film and checmicals (a couple of projects ground to a halt as a result). I probably don’t have to say that when I finally got ahold of their supplier and found out that he has not recieved a call from them, they were dropped like a chunk of fresh lava. I then cut a deal with the Taipei supplier to send down whatever I need via courrier…the former situation seems to be much more common than the latter.
[quote=“stragbasher”]Who’s imposing anything? I am simply observing that something which works where I come from doesn’t work here, and wondering out loud how people go about doing things their own way.
What is their way? And how do they/we manage when the two cultures collide?[/quote]
Strag,
I understand your perspective and do not think you were trying to impose anything. You ask very valid questions about factual differences. It sometimes seems to me like “we” have a phobia in some of these forums about discussing tough questions regarding the Taiwanese culture that we are currently (or were) immersed in. At best, it is oversimplification to regard a sincere question as thoughtless criticism. I, for one, truly appreciate the kind of intelligent and respectful questions like the ones that you started this topic with.
Like you said, what is their method? And, whatever it is, how can users of that method interact successfully with the West? Or vice versa?
As to your observations, I share them. As to an answer, I have no idea. I’m hoping that someone with level-headed experience in this area will share his or her thoughts.
Thanks, and pdjrib: don’t take offense. I’m just feeling pissy today. I’ve been giving ToeSlave a hard time all week and it’s hard to stop.
So this ‘high context’ issue relates more to how people interact and their expectations of each other. OK, we do things in different ways. Putting value judgements aside and accepting this at face value there is still the other issue to address:
How does this relate to a sale being treated as a problem-solving exercise? ie Joe Public comes into your shop looking for product X and after consultation elects to buy something else. The sales person educates the customer, explores their motivations and needs, identifies (defines) the underlying problem, and provides the solution. If the customer just comes in and buys what he wants you’re not a salesperson, you’re an order taker. The job of the salesperson is to guide the customer into making the decision that benefits the salesperson.
Obviously for this transaction to take place there has to be a relationship that is mutually acceptable, and Taiwan has different cultural standards, but once you establish the relationship is there the same analytical approach to the situation?
I feel that there isn’t, but that is based on very limited experience of dealing with students and their purchasing decisions with regard to English. I don’t have direct experience of how other business is done here, but I do feel that explaining things to Taiwanese people is usually a waste of time. People don’t seem to listen to each other, they just have their own ideas about that they want - where do they get them from? - and no amount of logical argument is going to change their minds.
You can put it down to cross-cultural differences, but when adult students show up in inappropriate classes - and persist with them even though they are getting no benefit - I can’t help thinking that they are not making rational decisions. So how do people make sales?
And yes, before anyone points it out, western salespeople generally try to find ‘hot buttons’ to get an impulse sale, but they do at least take the trouble to dress them up with rationalisations which make sense. We go about it in a different way and the question I ultimately want to answer is “how does someone on one side of the cultural divide go about doing business with someone on the other?”
For the record, I’m not trying to sell anything to anyone at the moment. I’m just interested out of interest.
I think it depends on the outlet you visit. If it’s retail are you talking about a more international setting, like Sogo, or a nightmarket setting.
If it’s wholesale from my experience East and West are more or less the same for similar size distributors.
The only difference I notice in buyer behavior in retail market Taiwan is usually center on the “haggling retail culture” and sensitivity to brand recognition or more specifically validation of brand recognition.
Serious question. Do things really ever work this way? I mean, I’ve heard the theory, but the vast, vast majority of salespeople I’ve dealt with in retail stores know very little about their products. In some cases I’ve ended up telling them about the features of their products, just from pre-purchase research I’ve done on the net (oh, you’re right, it does do that, what do you know?) :s
I always feel like they’re there just there to answer my questions, and sometimes not even then. Perhaps there has been the rare occasion where someone has influenced my purchasing decisions, but usually only when I was tossing up between two options anyway. But I do kind of agree that Westerners are probably more likely to either listen to the salesperson and ask questions or say ‘go away’ straight up while the Taiwanese may well listen, or appear to listen, out of politeness, and then ignore the information
Anyway, I thought Isaac and archinasia covered conventional wisdom pretty succinctly between them. However, I think this applies more to business to business trading (which I have no experience with) than retail trading.
As far as retail goes, I have noticed more of a ‘giveaway’ culture in Taiwan - here, have these tissues, this balloon, this coupon valid for $X - possibly because accepting such gifts subconsciously ‘promotes’ a relationship with the giver - as well as many more loyalty programmes - again, possibly influenced by the guanxi concept. The number of membership/discount/buy X, get one free cards I have accumulated is alarming. Of course, they have similar promotional techniques in Australia, but it doesn’t seem quite so universal there. I have a discount card for the $39 dollar shop, for heaven’s sake
[quote=“Isaac”]Taiwan has what could be called a high-context culture, it possesses characteristisc such as, but not limited to:
Relationships between trading parties are very important (e.g. quanxi), and relatively long lasting
Communication is often implict
Agreements tend to be spoken rather than written, and as you noted, people don’t like to be held against their words
In contrast, US and other more advanced Western countries have low-context cultures, with characteristics like:
Relationships between individuals are relatively short, usually only lasts as long as is required for the deal to go through
Messages are explicit (e.g. people say exactly what they mean, and if they say they’ll do something, they are expected to do it)
Agreements tend to be in writing rather than spoken
If you are interested, there are extensive academic literatures on culture conflicts and how to do business across cultures, try searching on one of those online journal databases. Good luck. [/quote]
No offence, Isaac, I don’t mean to be rude, but that sounds like a load of MBA-course psychobabble meaning: “in the West there is Rule of Law, and in the East there isn’t”
This can be boiled down to the fact that contracts are almost unenforceable here, whereas once an agreement is made in the West, it is generally strong enough to be successfully sued upon.
I see no evidence of relationships here which are longer than relationships in the West. Indeed I see the exact opposite. Here it is a case of we have sold you this, now "
Most Taiwanese customers expect freebies, starting with lunch/dinner, gifts, then KTV where the hostesses take off their bra (how exciting …) and finally followed by some under-the-table money (where applicable).
As well if you sell a product it is expected that you provide free installation and after-sales support, depending on the product of course and if you are “expecting” some future business.
A lot of local dealers state on their quoations a heavy discount, sometimes up to 50% - might be some kind of “psychological trick” though because I doubt the margins are that high, in particular not if the products are actually from overseas.
My company is a reseller for telecommunication equipment but we also “sold” our customer office furniture, a PVC floor, had the equipment room painted etc. during the initial delivery/implementation phase and provided lot’s of support on our own cost, including travel expenses, where there was no such contractual obligation.
[quote=“pjdrib”]I’m going to preempt Vannyel here…
Stop imposing a foreign system of thinking and culture on Taiwanese business people here. You have no right to expect them to conform to a foreign system foisted on them by imperialist christian missionary zealots.
:p[/quote]
Very good, but seriously you need to know when to use this argument. Besides as was pointed out, he’s observing not trying to impose and I for one laud his attempt to understand Taiwanese business practices.
Unfortunately I don’t speak Chinese well enough to ask any questions about products so I do the research on-line before I go buy something. But don’t large stores have warranties on their products? And I did buy some RAM at the electronics market that turned out to be the wrong one (the salesperson said it was the correct one!) so I had to take it back and exchange it (well my friend handled that). Of course I have bought stuff at other places and they are adamant in telling you there is no return or refund.
No offence, Isaac, I don’t mean to be rude, but that sounds like a load of MBA-course psychobabble meaning: “in the West there is Rule of Law, and in the East there isn’t”[/quote]
Well, my Taiwanese professor taught the same thing in my Taiwanese marketing class, but the high and low context concept was more geared towards marketing consumer goods, not contracts.
P.S. I’m in an MBA program because I can network, but I can’t count.
:help:
I thought high context meant that all kinds of things have to happen before one gets down to business: like socializing, feeling each other out, exchanging business cards, discussing things not related to the business at hand before getting down to it.
Low context means getting down to business and saving most of the “pleasantries” for later, if at all.
And, on to my question: what is a “strag” and how does one bash it?
My wife is in project management and pricing for an OEM manufacturer. She deals with HK and overseas buyers. I’ll quote her on Chinese shoppers’ mindsets:
“Every last one of them are fucking price shoppers. No exception. The only thing they can analyze in a product is price. They have no understanding of how to measure quality.”
I hear her moan this at least once a week. I used to work in the same company (but in HR), and I’d have to agree. When my wife gets a call back from a customer from Japan, the US or Europe about a price quote she has sent out, like any customer, they want to try to talk the price down. However, they can be reasoned with. They will understand that more money has to be spent because of either a quality or supply issue. Chinese buyers are a hell of a lot more cut-throat. They don’t want to hear any explanations. In the past when she has tried to explain, they would just try to pull the “I am the customer so I am god” routine. They get pushy much faster than any western buyer would. In fact, they are pushy from the get go. They also want all kinds of stuff on the side (KTV, dinners, drinks, help covering their personal mistakes even though such help will cost my wife’s company money, etc.). My wife has become a fucking ice queen at work. She doesn’t get mean and unlike her customers, she remains civil, but she is ice cold with a lot of her customers. And you know what? In the long run it works. They keep coming back because her prices and quality are good. They also come back because my wife maintains connections with their bosses in their parent companies back in Japan, the N America or Europe. She has developed quite subtle ways of letting these guys know that their buyers in HK are turning down competitive quotes for petty, personal reasons.
Further supporting the assertion that Chinese only care about cost and know nothing about measuring quality, I’ll tell you a bit about the main factory in my wife’s company. The sourcing and materials department is fucking huge. They have about 80 people, all with no background in engineering or material science, making most of the final decisions about who to buy from and some of the final decisions about exactly what material to use. All they know how to do is look at and compare cost, but with little or no actual knowledge of quality. On the other hand, the quality control department is tiny. They aren’t allowed to give much input on sourcing decisions. They are not given a sufficient budget for purchasing and training how to use diagnostic tools for measuring the quality of the materials of prospective or incoming materials. If the problem isn’t obvious to the naked eye, then they accept it. Only after the material doesn’t work in the production process will the factory reject it. Of course a lot of this stems from corruption. There is more money to be made by managers in the material department and above by making decisions based on price and red envelopes rather than the actual suitability of a product. My guess it that most factories on the mainland operate this way.
To me, that last sentence fully explains why I don’t listen much to salesmen. Their interests are not the same as mine. They are not an objective source of information.
I hate it when I go into a shop and am assaulted by a sales(wo)man before I’ve even had a look around. If I need information and I think they can provide it objectively, then I’ll ask. Until I have any questions, I’d prefer that they just fuck off. Most things I am told by sales people are either not important, misleading or just plain wrong. I would say that for 99.9% of the things I buy, my decision is not at all influenced by what the salesman has said or done. On the contrary, most things that I’m interested in buying but don’t end up buying are usually not bought because of the salesman. It’s not really a conscious reaction, but if I go into a shop and the sales person does much more than tell me that I should feel free to ask any questions if I have any, then I probably won’t end up buying anything. Most salesman do nothing to help me make a decision. I’d say that’s true in both the US and over here.
As for your question about Taiwanese shopping habits, I think their are good and bad reasons and results for their behaviour. One reason they don’t want to listen to a salesman is because people just don’t trust each other as much over here. Contracts and return agreements (if there are any) are often not honored. I sometimes find it refreshing to watch my wife completely blow off a salesman and just keep him dangling until she is ready to ask him questions that are relevant to her. A lot more women her age back in the US would just believe everything the salesman has to say and buy according to that.
Of course the downside to this seems to be that Chinese people spend less or won’t adjust their tastes because they often refuse to believe any sort of information that is out there about a product. This comes to mind since we’ve been discussing it in another thread: Have you ever tried to convince a Taiwanese person that their shitty little rotating trash bin washing machines are completely inferior to an American toploader with a center-post agitator or a European front-loader? You could talk until you are blue in the face. No amount of reasoning will convince the average Taiwanese person that their washing machines are not much more than what could be patched together with a pvc bucket bought at the 99 shop, a cheap electric motor and a belt. As long as the vastly superior machine is just a little more expensive, no amount of explaining will convince them to switch to it. Their urge to decide based on price far outways their ability or willingness to analyze anything else about the product when making their decision. Either they just don’t have the ability to weigh a handful of factors or they are reluctant to trust any information given or both. On the whole, I think that is one big reason why they save more and fill their homes with much less shit than we do. Consciously or not, they know that they are not able to make a buying decision based on a complex set of factors because they don’t have the analytical tools or they can’t get reliable information or both. The result is that they go into default mode, which means they will buy the cheapest or they will not buy it at all. I don’t think that is a characteristic of just Chinese people. I think you would find the same thing in any newly affluent society where contracts and agreements aren’t always honored and people aren’t experienced with analyzing a variety of bits of (hopefully) reliable information before making a decision.
This is great. Thanks guys, and I hope you’ll keep the ideas and opinions coming. To throw some fuel onto the fire:
You are referring to sales assistants, people who facilitate the sale by pointing at things, mumbling, and relieving you of your money. It’s all relevant discussion, and I’m glad it’s taking place, but what I’m referring to is real sales - where the customer is led to the preferred conclusion.
Here’s an example, my first sales job which I quit a few weeks after starting:
Joe Public gets a knock on his door, and answers it to find an eager young employee of a security company which - as part of its commitment to continued research and improvement - is offering free home security surveys. He expresses interest and, after verifying that he is a homeowner and in gainful employment, an appointment is made to send a ‘consultant’ around.
This generates a pre-qualified lead, someone in a position to buy the product who feels that they may have a problem to which you happen to have the answer.
The consultant starts by taking control in various subtle ways, making friends with the customer, and ‘chatting’ - digging for useful information, discussing the area and perceived crime problem. Having set the scene he moves on to the formal confirmation that the customer is concerned about his home security situation. If he’s not then there’s no point doing the survey, which is usually unthinkable for someone who has stayed home to get his freebie, so you win a clear statement of concern.
Then you go on to establish your credibility by introducing your company, asking for their formal approval, and building up their belief that you’re way out of their price range and therefore they are in no danger of buying anything. So they’re nice and relaxed and docile as you lead them round the house showing them all the ways you can break into their house.
By the time you have gone around the outside they have recognised and confirmed that they are absolutely not secure, and then you take them inside to hammer the message home.
And so on. I’ll skip the further details. The bones of it are:
Customer declares that he has concern, and that break-ins are a problem locally.
Customer states that he trusts you and your company.
Customer recognises that he is not secure.
Customer has the shit scared out of him by your presentation about what can happen when someone gets in, confirms that he doesn’t want that.
Interior walk-round identifies objects of monetary and/or sentimental value that the customer confirms he wishes to protect.
Customer gives a commitment to protecting his home.
Customer is asked for ideas about security systems, and all negatives.
Customer confirms that if all negatives (including financial) could be resolved then he would buy a security system. (Any additional negatives are identified at this point.)
Customer is asked to list the features he would want in his ideal security system.
Customer confirms that this is what he wants, and he would buy it if it was available and affordable. There should be no more additional negatives at this point.
Consultant ‘teaches’ customer about security systems, benefits, drawbacks, and costs.
Both agree that none are suitable, customer relaxes and is invited to express regret that his perfect system is not available. Customer obliges.
Customer confirms again that he would buy it if it was available and affordable.
Consultant introduces his system, hands on to give a sense of ownership.
Both parties consult ‘wish list’ and negatives to confirm that this is, in fact, the system that the customer has just said he wants to buy.
Consultant asks for reasons not to buy it, and lists them without addressing them.
Customer is asked to confirm that there are no other reasons why he wouldn’t buy the system, and reminded of all the commitments he has made so far.
Salesman overcomes final objections and closes the sale.
The only reason not to buy is affordability. Every other issue should have been dealt with before closing, leaving the customer nowhere to go.
