The stamp for independence

Politics Taiwan Politics
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maybe she keeps herself busy watching Japanese doramas, as half of the woman in here do… (depending on which one, I also do, so kill me)… but hey, you can hear me ranting in 4 or 5 languages, and that doesn’t mean a single thing…

Now… let us start to make it clear, cause people might get injured…

You go anywhere in the world, you try to say to people : “China Airlines doesn’t fly to China” (except in rare occasions), and you will see how ridiculous the situation is.
So what is the problem of the pro-Localization government doing what he is supposed to do?
Does anyone in Taiwan (that as far as I know, is not an island, but a group of them) put in their Taiwan made products “Made in China”?
Does anyone in the world (except people who care to go dig for it) know that Taiwan name is actually “Republic of China” - which is almost as valid as “Republic of Loosers-who-got-kicked-out-from-China-almost-60-years-ago?”.
I don’t know why people are making such a fuss in this - changing the names of the big institutions from China to Taiwan is natural, and I don’t know why they took so long.
By the way, ac, do you have problems in getting in to the trains of the TRA?
ac, they won’t put madame Wu photo on it, because there are 1 million binlang girls that would make better photos…

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sdf

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[quote=“mr_boogie”]maybe she keeps herself busy watching Japanese doramas, as half of the woman in here do… (depending on which one, I also do, so kill me)… but hey, you can hear me ranting in 4 or 5 languages, and that doesn’t mean a single thing…

Now… let us start to make it clear, cause people might get injured…[/quote]

People are going to be injured? Who ?

Do you really believe that [quote=“mr_boogie”] watching Japanese doramas [/quote]
is the reason Chens mother in law used Japanese? Do you really believe it doesn’t mean a single thing? On grading the response i give “could do better if tried harder”.

Also I see you made no mention of how removing a statue of CKS helps people differentiate between China and Taiwan.

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[quote=“almondbiscuit”]

with the removal of the CKS statues (hooray!) i think it’s about getting rid of the propaganda of Taiwan’s 光復 (“glorious return”), and hence, related to the ideology thing again - that we should have neutral naming and public spaces as much as possible. or at least, names that truly reflect the current political status of Taiwan - obviously, like mr boogie said, the pro localisation gov - i.e. a govt that was voted into office by the people - is going to do as fits their party platform. but really, taiwan is very neutral in terms of naming. it’s not zhong hua or republic of china (leading to confusion as well as being a name derived from on the KMT’s propaganda) or republic of Taiwan. the last name is something to aspire to, though.

there is also a second dimension to this when it comes to CKS’s name and image - the fact that CKS was a murderer and dictator and the fact that it’s now okay to openly criticise him and his regime, and the fact that Taiwanese are opening to rectification of their KMT-cooked version of CKS’s legacy is part of getting to the reality of the past too.

as for CSB’s mother in law, i think you’re wrong about the greens having a Japanese-superiority thing. for example, abian himself does not have it and certainly never had it. the greens are pro-taiwan specifically, and it tends to be the older generation who experienced both the japanese and KMT colonialisation periods who may be nostalgic about the era of japanese rule. pro-formal-independence/normalisation by definition cancels out any aspirations to being colonised in any form, including cultural, whether by japanese or any other country.

do some of them use it as a means of differentiating themselves from china and leveraging a TI sentiment in themselves? i think some might. but just from observation, it is a tiny portion and really tends to be the older generation who experienced both colonial periods for themselves. it’s very rare that you have greens talk about any admiration for japan in a way that suggests they actually want to be part of japan or want taiwan to follow japan culturally at the expense of Taiwanese self-identity or actually feel they have a hybrid japanese-Taiwanese identity to a significant degree and feel “superior” because of it.

again, this is a different sentiment to simple Taiwanese admiration for japan - i think the modern japanese lifestyle (bc higher living standards) and japan has been voted by the Taiwanese population to be the most admired/aspired to, followed by the USA’s…but this is different to wanting to be japanese or being colonised by japan altogether…[/quote]

I can see you are happy both at CKS statues being removed and the name changes, I am sure a lot of people are. The point I am making is, that the reason for name changes (China to Taiwan), is to reflect reality and so there is no confusion, like I said fair enough. But removing CKS statue in no way helps people distinguish between Taiwan and China. Therefore if one concludes that they are part of the same process, then the motivation is something more than that which is being offered.

I never actually said the Greens had a Japanese-superiority thing, it would be a gross generalization and I dont think fitting. But would you deny that Chen shui Bians mother in law doesn’t have a Japanese-superiority thing? That there is an obvious hatred for the Chinese, and that this hatred has more than likely been passed down from one generation to the next?

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well, Mick, I think that you missed my irony when I was talking about doramas…

The point for Chinese hatred comes (and you can see everywhere in the world) as a post Sinonization effect.

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]But once agian TI supporter forget that there are two other islands under Taiwan’s control. What about the Jinman and Matzu stamp?

Or are those islands too Chinese now?[/quote]

Exactly. All this talk about easing some trivial “confusion” is bunk. It just exchanges one set of confusion for another. Are Jinmen and Mazu, which are in the Fujian province, supposed to use Taiwan stamps? Of course TI/ers have long dreamed of kicking Jinmen/Mazu out of the “ROT” they construct in their minds, because the two counties, while small, nevertheless introduce cognitive dissonance in their ideology that Taiwan was “never” a part of China.

I’m not going to guess whether almondbiscuit has a mind fogged up by green politics or just disingenuous, which is a trait of green politicians from the top down, but it is clear that scoring political points has been the only things on this administration’s mind when it made these so called “name rectifications”. Former “foreign minister” and current cabinet member Mark “LP” Chen just said that to answer the call of the name rectification campaign he ought to change his Chinese name from Chen Tang Shan to Chen Yu Shan – Tang Shan being a place in the mainland and Yu Shan being a range in Taiwan. It is patently clear to everyone what the aim is and nothing almondbiscuit says can change that.

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adg

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Throughout this, you’ve only managed to argue that the older people do believe in Japanese superiority over “Chinese”, except that you think it wasn’t out of prejudice but true experience. I would agree with the experience part, except I would add the true subtext that it was the experience of indoctrination – the indoctrination that Japanese were superior to all other Asians, which was the ideology that led Japan to conquest and war in the first place and the one that they propagated in order to keep doing so. Keep digging the hole to bury yourself.

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dsg

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[quote=“almondbiscuit”]i wonder if people using the Chinese hatred card against greens realise they often use it based on erroneous reasoning?

that is, when it is used when the issue is about speaking out against (Chinese) imperalism (especially via cultural means) and subjugation of anything that is considered non-Chinese? and not hatred of anything Chinese in particular?[/quote]

Are you oppressed? Did somebody subjugate you today? If not, then what is there to speak out about? What is the motivation if it isn’t malignment of anything “Chinese” because such things have depreciated political worth?

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sdf

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blah blah blah is right. Let me ask you again. Are you oppressed and subjugated. How are you actually affected? If I were a Taiwan businessman, it would be obvious to me that it is not China but Chen Shui Bian who oppresses and subjugates me by limiting my freedom to conduct my business, investment, travel, and possibly family relationship. That would be a hell of a lot more important to me than some abstract crap and daydream about the “right” name in organizations and what kind of upgrades Chen Shui Bian can get for his globetrotting itinerary so he can play Santa Claus to dinky island nations.

But specifically you were talking about cultural imperialism within Taiwan and how the recent changes and similar ones in the past and future resolve that issue, and that was what I was referring to. That doesn’t have anything to do with China and everything to do with Taiwan itself, so don’t attempt to pull a quick one by subverting the topic to all the same old crybaby stuff about China that hasn’t fundamentally changed since the 1970s.

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sdf

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And guess what? The “blues” are Taiwanese as well as the preferred majority elected by the people of Taiwan. No matter how much you rant and pop your veins trying to discredit the blues as “not Taiwanese” and as imposing some kind of “imperialism”, when they are simply making their own choice about identity, exactly as you want for yourself, they are just as much Taiwanese as you will ever be and their vision for the future of Taiwan is just as valid as yours.

Look at how pathetic you are. Boo hoo that the world doesn’t revolve around you and not every Taiwanese reflects your worldview in historical, cultural, economic, political, and social dialogue.

Why don’t you try listening to your own advice sometime.

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sdf

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Bullshit. You can keep deluding yourself about about why KMT has gained in recent years at the expense of DPP, by lamenting some invented victimhood, but you aren’t deluding anyone else. Since multiparty politics began ages ago, DPP and KMT became the same in all respects but one: DPP wanted DPP in power. DPP tried to extract returns from the convenient fact of a Hoklo subethnic majority by using TI as a rhetorical device. To Hoklo supremacists, there is no self identification, only politically-correct identification. To Hoklo supremacists, there is no right of level political playing field, only the right of a playing field that produces Hoklo dominance. It’s irrational nationalim just the same, only the flip side of the old. Except the DPP is too inept to fool most Taiwanese with its overblown nationalism, but the Hoklo heartstring does tug amongst the Hoklo supremacists. No wonder the DPP only managed to get consistent returns from the latter, to which you belong.

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It seems that those who had a Japanese education were very proud of this fact, I would suggest Chen Shui Bians mother in law falls nicely into this category.

And if the Taiwanese were so anti Japanese during this period, why was it that volunteering for the Japanese army was sufficient in Taiwan from 1941 to 1945 when only in 1945 a full scale draft was ordered? There was a big push to assimilate the Taiwanese into Japanese society during this period also, ( “Kōminka movement” (皇民化運動, kōminka undō) can you provide evidence this was rejected by the majority of Taiwanese?

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]Okay, I seriously suggest that Madame Wu Shu-Chen image be place on the first “Taiwan” stamp.

I swear not to have any improper thoughts when I lick the backside of Madame Wu Shu-Chen “Taiwan” stamp, nor have any malicious thoughts when I firmly affix the stamp on the “Taiwan” envelope. Furthermore, I will promise never to affix the stamp up-side-down.

If Madame Wu image is not available, I would like to propose a VP Lu stamp. The same level of respect will be afforded to the VP Lu stamps.

As always, Taiwan’s loyal and devoted citizen ac_dropout.[/quote]

I’m sure AC_Dropout has heard this joke. Chen Shui Bian’s cabinet makes some new self-adhesive stamps and puts Chen’s face on it, but there are complaints that the stamps have trouble staying on envelopes. Chen asks why, is there something wrong with the adhesive? So he spits on the adhesive and puts it on an envelope and it sticks perfectly. An advisor tells him, “But, President Chen, according to our reports, people like to spit on the front.”

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[quote=“mr boogie”]well, Mick, I think that you missed my irony when I was talking about doramas…

The point for Chinese hatred comes (and you can see everywhere in the world) as a post Sinonization effect.[/quote]
Shouldn’t she be speaking Korean these days. Their dramas are much more popular than the Japanese these days.

I think Sino-bashing these days is more due to the fact China will be displacing the “world order” in the next couple of decades. Anyways Taiwan is the odd-man-out trying to de-Han-ify, and trying to Holko-fy, while the rest of world is re-aligning with PRC.

That’s really selective history. I’m sure if you asked the 1st/2nd/3rd generation of Taiwanese under Japanese rule, they would have preferred the Qing dynasty as well.

Just accept the fact the Japanese never accepted the Han and Aboriginal population on Taiwan as equal status Japanese. Just look at ethnic Koreans and Chinese in Japan today…second class citizens blamed for yakuza and other social ills…

That’s an acedemic question. Not a political one. Just like evolution is a science question. Not a political one.

But as a humorous observation. The KMT subjugated us Taiwanese so much, that we post in fluent English, instead of Hoklo. :unamused:

Damn that Dr. Sun and his dream that Han Chinese vote. What the hell was he think?

If we only followed the path of the Japanese and let the US write our constitution…Or the South Korean where the USA controls their military…we wouldn’t have these problems.

Damn this non-violent form of expressing self-determination…Dr. Sun I curse you in English because you oppressed us so much that we forgetten how to post in Chinese and/or Hoklo… :laughing:

zeug,

Now that’s funny…I’m ordering 1000 of those stamps. :laughing:

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[quote=“Mick”][quote=“almondbiscuit”]
[p.s. let me pull a zeugmite: my question is still unanswered: zeugmite, explain this: how could the hatred of Chinese imperialism have been indoctrinated by the mightily evil Japanese into the darn Taiwanese separatist traitors when the Taiwanese were so overjoyed at the idea of the Chinese coming to “liberate” Taiwan?][/quote]

I know the question was aimed at zeugmite, but I’m also curious,

It doesn’t seem everyone was overjoyed. This is from Wiki on Lee Teng Hui

[quote]Nationalist takeover and those Taiwanese from the mainland who focus on actions of the Imperial Japanese Army during WWII. When Japan capitulated in 1945, Lee Teng-hui expressed deep sadness and reportedly cried.
[/quote]

It seems that those who had a Japanese education were very proud of this fact, I would suggest Chen Shui Bians mother in law falls nicely into this category.

And if the Taiwanese were so anti Japanese during this period, why was it that volunteering for the Japanese army was sufficient in Taiwan from 1941 to 1945 when only in 1945 a full scale draft was ordered? There was a big push to assimilate the Taiwanese into Japanese society during this period also, ( “Kōminka movement” (皇民化運動, kōminka undō) can you provide evidence this was rejected by the majority of Taiwanese?[/quote]

There are always people who just want to get on with life and there were also people who were against Japan to begin with (perhaps because their family suffered from some atrocity? Ironic that history repeats with Hoklo unforgiveness of KMT…) Then there were people who benefited from the occupation, like LTH. But the effect of years of dehumanizing indoctrination that Chinese were “inferior”, “dirty”, “thieving” does not go away easiy and colors the perception and interpretation of everything the 1945 Taiwanese youth sees around him/her. It becomes an unconscious task to find validation for his/her prejudices and in the subsequent political repression, find reasons to loath the identity of Chinese in favor of something that feels more superior.

TI/ers today will deny that they are Japan lovers. Well that’s not exactly the accusation. The accusation is they are WWII-Japanese-think-alikes with respect to matters Chinese. They will deny with all their energy that they got such hatred of Chinese from Japan, perhaps because they don’t know any better, but also because they really didn’t get it from Japan directly, but indirectly via their grandparents, neighbors, storytellers.