Then that’s totally damning evidence against us all, isn’t it Taiwaner. An undercover reporter scours the pubs of Taipei for the most drunken, brain-dead, low-life foreigners, and after priming several with provocative questions that fail to yield the desired response, finally hits the jackpot with a guy who declares that all Taiwanese women are hookers. Bingo! A wonderful scoop! Guaranteed to make it onto the prime-time cable TV news. The audience will lap it up and gorge their worst prejudices on it – just what the station bosses are always looking for, and won’t this tasty morsel make them pleased! Well worth the effort indeed!
And all of us foreigners stand exposed and damned as the swine we truly are. So let us all hang our heads in shame and release those poor Chinese girls whom we’ve so evilly enslaved as our girlfriends and wives.
Thanks for posting on this forum, Taiwaner. It’s good to have people like you contributing such wholesome fare to these threads and raising the tone of the discussions here. Do be sure to come back again soon and regale us some more with your penetrating insights and devilish wit.
As you said, Welcome to “The Twilight Zone!” Shit like this happens, it’s not just you.
The next time it happens just say, “So what! Mind your own business.”
or
“Why do you care?”
Usually they don’t know how to respond.
or
If no one else is around, stare at them, point, start laughing and then comment on how uneducated they are. or Comment on what they are wearing no matter how good or bad it is, you’ll surely think of something in the heat of the moment.
All of these in one way or another will make them lose face and they will feel overly embarassed because not only did you understand what they said, but you can also speak the language.
Just make sure you slow down and that what you say comes out clearly so they can understand.
Or just walk away and then tell your friends back home lots of stories, they’ll laugh, you’ll laugh and all will be well.
Have you ever noticed that when one thing happens, more are to come in the same day?
[color=green]Maoman here.
Taiwaner, in a fit of pique, started deleting all of his posts, including this one, which is why the only content you see here is from me. It’s also why he got banned, the little twerp. [/color]
Well I am sure there are several emails and news stories circulating around that portray foreigners living in the US in a negative light also. And I am also sure some of them are derogatory. But I am also sure that a majority of people do not believe everything they see or read about these stories and emails. See the difference?
So the fact that the moronic foreigner who spouted that crap was being egged on by his pals proves that it was not an isolated case but indicative of the general mindset of the whole Taiwanese foreign community and all non-Chinese in general. Er, haven’t you ever heard the saying “Birds of a feather flock together”, Taiwaner? Haven’t you ever noticed that where there’s one red-mawed Whisby-swilling taxi-driver enjoying his leisure in a bar or at a roadside stall, he’s more than likely to be in company with others of his kind. Ditto those amphetamine-popping scooter monkeys and all the various other dregs of Taiwanese society. So can their behaviour and expressions of opinion fairly be taken to reflect yours and those of all other Taiwanese people? They certainly wouldn’t be indicative of the thoughts and attitudes of any Taiwanese that I count among my acquaintance, and of course I would never take them as being so.
If one were to look hard enough among Chinese communities in the U.S., U.K., or wherever else Chinese people settle in large numbers, one would surely be able to record coarse derogatory remarks about local American or British women similar to (or far viler than) those you “quoted”, Taiwaner. Low, alienated, inarticulate people will say nasty things about any and everything. And those who repeat what they say and spread the muck around are as bad as the ones who say it in the first place. Or maybe much worse, because they should know better.
There are neanderthals in this world, Taiwaner. They do not represent the human race as a whole.
Sorry, I’m not too articulate myself just now - it’s 4:30 in the morning and I should be in bed asleep.
First off, my apology for not making myself clear in my previous post. I was sorta in a hurry, and I didn’t put much thought into it. I see that I had failed to get my point across, and now I wish to offer a more well thought-out post to clarify the points I was trying to make.
Granted, Taiwanese media is notorious for equivocation and heedless showing of petulant scenes with sole intention of driving up the ratings. Yet I feel that’s hardly what we are dealing with here. Yes, the shows might have contributed partially to the rage. However the problem as I see it has more to do with your lack of respect and insensitivity to local culture than anything else. I noticed that the urge for more cultural awareness had been brought up more than once in the past. Yet it seems that none of you had taken the heed; despite of what was being said, you still indulge yourself in making casual remarks such as, I quoted, “The girls here get pregnant all the time. The only ‘contraception’ that seems to get used is a trip to the abortion clinic every six months” and “local girls are pant-loose and easy.” Now mind you, these are not the most offensive comments I’ve heard. And they are probably not meant to be offensive either. So I’m not gonna hold them against you. However, it’s comments like this which often cause resentment (I’m sure some ppl out there would deem them as offensive), especially when they are made in public. (For all intents and purposes, this forum should be considered public also, correct?)
As one of the Taiwanese posters in an earlier thread dutifully pointed out, Taiwanese people tend to have lower threshhold when it comes to remarks concerning local women. In many aspects, the culture is still conservative by any standard, and it should be treated as such.
Sorry if I sound too harsh or seem overtly belligerent, as some of the stuffs are starting to get on my nerve. Yet I offer no apology for the criticism as it seems to me that you gave yourself plenty of leeway to criticize and belittle other people
[color=green]Maoman here.
Taiwaner, in a fit of pique, started deleting all of his posts, including this one, which is why the only content you see here is from me. It’s also why he got banned, the little twerp. [/color]
People from western democratic nations are very, very comfortable complaining about what looks wrong , stupid or weird. We do so very frequently in our own nations. While in Taiwan, we natuarally complain or comment on the nonsense that goes on here. And there is PLENTY of nonsense that goes on in Taiwan.
Having said that, I think the majority of foreign nationals living in Taiwan long-term absolutely have a respect for the good aspects of Taiwanese culture. But just as when in our own nations, the good aspects do not need commenting on. There is that old difference in attitudes between free western people and East Asians: As an American, I say “the squeeky wheel gets the oil”… while my wife, born and raised in Taiwan, normally will say “the nail that stands up gets hit on the head”.
There is a good amount of truth, from a western person’s eyes, in these comments. Remember, all of us, Taiwanese and foreigner alike, assess things that we perceive by comparing them to and contrasting them against that which we have experienced before.
Thus, to a white guy who arrives in Taiwan after struggling with the fairer sex back home, Taiwanese girls, EVEN IF NOT EVERY Taiwanese girl, do seem incredibly “easy”. And because the Taiwanese do not have the same issues re abortion that, for example, Americans do, abortion is more commonplace in Taiwan.
No doubt. But perhaps the people feeling resentment should look inward and contemplate the reason some foreigners would make such “resentful” statements.
Can’t speak for Europeans, but as an American, I find precious few instances where Taiwanese culture is more conservative than American culture. Now, I know American culture can be difficult to define, but I come from a particularly conservative commonwealth and my wife and in-laws, after initially mistaking that they were more conservative than I, have been complaining about my conservatism for the past 13 years.
I find Taiwanese culture incredibly non-conservative, from my perspective, and particularly in respect of the issues (women and sex) being the present topic. Thus, I find it difficult to believe that any resentment that the Taiwanese feel resulting from remarks made by foreigners regarding Taiwanese women stems from any conservative Taiwanese values. Rather, and I’m sorry to say, to me it appears obvious that the sourse of resentment is something far less noble than a sense of conservatism and desire to protect the local women.
No apology needed (especially as I was not the one who made the remarks on which you are commenting). This is a message board and the idea is to exchange ideas, freely. I’m not certain what you refer to re the Taiwan Fight thread, but I think it again obvious that Taiwanese fights do tend to differ in many respect to fights, at least in my home. Even my Taiwanese friends and wife constantly warn me about the way Taiwanese people fight (i.e., ganging up on a few or one rather than one on one).
Wrong. I am not easily swayed by what I see or hear or even read in the media. If you or anyone else is, then the problem is yours.
Yes indeed. You should take that advice also.
taiwaner, I do not mean this post to be an attack on you personally, and I hope that you do not take this as jibe at you personally.
Fair enough.
I see where you are coming from with this, and I’ve got no problem with your views at all. It’s just that it seems to me most Americans (or westerners in general) tend to hold the perception that the western culture/value system is the gold standard and meter for others to strive for. That is what I meant by ‘lack of respect for the local culture.’ And that kind of attitude has certainly got you into trouble in many parts of the world. (middle east being the latest in the list).
Case in study, you said:
Have you considered the possibility that what you considered ‘nonsense’ is actually the result of cultural difference and misunderstanding? Okay, so you don’t agree with the ways things are done. Does that really give you the right to ram your belief or ideology down everybody’s throat?? (On a side note, I do agree that some things needed to be changed. But some of the stuffs you ranted about in Pet Peeves thread are just… hmm… pathetic… for lack of a better word).
Well, I remember during my second year in the states, I wrote an essay explaining the introduction of corporal punishment would help rein in unruly youths in America. Do you remember the Michael Faye case (the American kid who got whipped for his crime of vandalism) in Singapore couple years ago? I thought It would probably be a good idea to introduce corporal punishment to the criminal justice system since I got fed up with having my car smashed and toilet paper being thrown all over the place on halloween nights.
Oh, I’m sure my English teacher had got a kick out of reading and grading the paper. But did my suggestion really mean anything to her? Hope you can see the point I’m trying to make.
It’s probably not the case for most of people out there, as evidenced by the lack of interest in Chechenya in the western world and the fact that support for Palestine surged dramatically after the video clip of the kid who got shot in his father’s arms was broadcasted on national tv. The phenomena certainly suggest that there is a correlation between importance people assigned to a news story and the amount of TV coverage the story receives. So I would like to stand by my claim that most if not all people are easily swayed by what they see or hear in the media.
No offense taken. Actually, your post makes a rather interesting read.
Thank you.
[quote=“taiwaner”]Fair enough.
I see where you are coming from with this, and I’ve got no problem with your views at all. It’s just that it seems to me most Americans (or westerners in general) tend to hold the perception that the western culture/value system is the gold standard and meter for others to strive for.[/quote]
Well, at the risk of being regarded as ethnocentric, I’ll go on record and state that I do believe that many of the western ideals, such as democratic freedom, rule of law, and administrative transparency are far more desirable than autocratic rule and cult of personality, using relationships rather than law to resolve problems, and beaurocratic opaqueness.
I really don’t think that America’s or the west’s problems in the middle east have much to do with any lack of respect for the local cultures there. Attempts to identify American or western arrogance as the source of other nations’ woes are convenient, but hardly rational.
[quote=“taiwaner”]Case in study, you said:
Have you considered the possibility that what you considered ‘nonsense’ is actually the result of cultural difference and misunderstanding?[/quote]
Yes. And of course there are cultural differences. I do believe that certain cultures are “superior”, from my value system perspective, to other cultures. I expect differences between cultures. But as an objective and rational human being, I am able to and enjoy comparing and contrasting different cultures and deciding for myself the “goods” and “bads” of each culture. I wouldn’t dare say that I understand everything I see in Taiwanese culture. However, I have been here for 17 years (back and forth) and am married to a local gal and work with Taiwanese people in a Taiwanese company. If I have questions about something I think is nonsensical, I ask about it. Sometimes the explanation clears things up, and other times my wife or co-workers shrug and say “its just the way we do things, even though it is ridiculous”.
Who is doing that?
Such as?
Sure… I think he got what he desreved… if he indeed did what he was accused of. My only problem with that case was the possibility that due process, as understood in the US, may not have been observed.
I wrote this post in the Flame Forum for a reason. I was venting, a normal human response to illogical and thus frustrating, situations. The Flame Forum is the appropriate place for that, or so I thought.
There are a number of baseless assumptions in Taiwaner’s posts on this thread that I was prepared to respond to, but Omni, chainsmoker, and tigerman have done a fine job of that already. My support of their responses has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with calling a spade a spade, and a bigot a bigot.
