I think that you are mixing up Jdsmith with Jaboney, no?[/quote]
Mutual intellectual masturbation, Pfannekuchen and going halves on the tissues…
BroonAndrex
You are incorrect. I said that I respect their consciously accepting their own demise; you are focused only on their reasoning and their politics, and I am not.
I have judged the political actions of all the people you have brought up in the past; I am talking about something totally different, and you only seem intent of seeing me backpeddle from a poorly stated post.
Well, I did, and I have clarified myself as well as I can. If you still disagree with me, ok. Won’t be the first time.[/quote]
Your continued attempts at rebuttal are no more than intellectual masturbation. You haven’t made any sense at all and your post requires a drastic re-think. Perhaps a Viennese cafe might be a good place to rethink it.
BroonAmericanAirlines[/quote]
And your refusal to see things from my POV only seems to strengthen your conviction that I too should demonize people who do things I don’t like.[/quote]
:roflmao: Why TF should I see it from your POV when your POV is so up there in La La land on this issue?
I hate Parisien taxi drivers with a passion, so I think I’ll just go kill a few to clean up their act. I’ll take pictures and then you show me some respect, OK?
:loco:
BroonArmalite
No. No. NO!
[quote]Why TF should I see it from your POV when your POV is so up there in La La land on this issue?
I hate Parisien taxi drivers with a passion, so I think I’ll just go kill a few to clean up their act. I’ll take pictures and then you show me some respect, OK?
[/quote]
Clearly you do not feel that strongly about the issue, or you would have already done so. Or maybe your belief that you “hate” them is just your way of blowing smoke up your own ass to satisfy your ego and penchant for drawing attention to yourself. Who knows?
I have some doubt that you have ever thought of giving your life, in the literal sense, for any cause. And it is this understanding of one’s own mortality that I am talking about.
However, I also doubt that you will understand that as your apparent selfishness seems to prevent any thinking outside of your own box.
frog
well
deep
Have a nice day. 
[quote=“jdsmith”][quote]Why TF should I see it from your POV when your POV is so up there in La La land on this issue?
I hate Parisien taxi drivers with a passion, so I think I’ll just go kill a few to clean up their act. I’ll take pictures and then you show me some respect, OK?
[/quote]
Clearly you do not feel that strongly about the issue, or you would have already done so. Or maybe your belief that you “hate” them is just your way of blowing smoke up your own ass to satisfy your ego and penchant for drawing attention to yourself. Who knows?
I have some doubt that you have ever thought of giving your life, in the literal sense, for any cause. And it is this understanding of one’s own mortality that I am talking about.
However, I also doubt that you will understand that as your apparent selfishness seems to prevent any thinking outside of your own box.
frog
well
deep
Have a nice day. [/quote]
Firstly, I was laying into your stupid argument that terrorists are deserving of respect and you Mr. Mod. retort with a personal attack.
Tetchy and pathetic.
Your attempts at rationalising the irrational and unjustifiable have fallen flat and you just don’t like being (seen as) wrong do you?
Diddums.
BroonAloof
Unjustifiable, sure.
What makes it irrational, or any more irrational than sacrificing oneself for any other purpose?
[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“jdsmith”][quote]Why TF should I see it from your POV when your POV is so up there in La La land on this issue?
I hate Parisien taxi drivers with a passion, so I think I’ll just go kill a few to clean up their act. I’ll take pictures and then you show me some respect, OK?
[/quote]
Clearly you do not feel that strongly about the issue, or you would have already done so. Or maybe your belief that you “hate” them is just your way of blowing smoke up your own ass to satisfy your ego and penchant for drawing attention to yourself. Who knows?
I have some doubt that you have ever thought of giving your life, in the literal sense, for any cause. And it is this understanding of one’s own mortality that I am talking about.
However, I also doubt that you will understand that as your apparent selfishness seems to prevent any thinking outside of your own box.
frog
well
deep
Have a nice day. [/quote]
Firstly, I was laying into your stupid argument that terrorists are deserving of respect and you Mr. Mod. retort with a personal attack.
Tetchy and pathetic.
Your attempts at rationalising the irrational and unjustifiable have fallen flat and you just don’t like being (seen as) wrong do you?
Diddums.
BroonAloof[/quote]
I wonder how much sympathy you will get here Broon. Have you not been attacking me all morning, or has that been attacking my position? But wait, since you refuse to even see my position, how can that be?
If you see my POV as wrong, ok, as I said, fine by me. But where do you get off holding the mantle of what is or is not an acceptable “rationalisation?”
Once again you have proven that you simply do not get my point, as you refer to some of the people I spoke of as “terrorists” which is a political term, is it not?
So who doesn’t fucking understand?
I have given you FAR more respect in this discussion than you have given me, and the moment I put my eye on your rationalisations and where they may stem from, you cry “foul!”
True to form eh?
Why not take this to feedback. That would be the usual next step, right?
What exactly are you referring to as “unjustifiable?” I think that you should make that very clear here so there is no room for mistaken criticism or wriggle room later…
Again, clarify. I have a feeling the pot is about to lose a lid on this one…
I would, however, like to say that while initially agreeing with Broon Ale’s sentiments that I am not sure exactly where he is taking this debate… Is this to be a moral-ethical discussion of the rights and wrongs of self sacrifice or is it to be one that determines the ultimate justification of fighting for goals that certain groups view as unacceptable? I think that we all need to be very clear about that before we proceed.
And what is it with the pfannekuchen? tissues? half tissues? ripped tissues? half pfannekuchen or would that be halbpfannekuchen or pfannekuchenstucke?
From my POV, neither.
The decision to sacrifice one’s life is not an easy one under any circumstances. That any one person can actually do this to me shows a certain strength of willpower. I am leaving aside and an all judgements on the rightness or wrongness of the reason, and focusing ONLY on the decision itself.
Whether that decision is provoked by pain, anger, fear or fantasy or some other emotion is a secondary discussion.
[quote=“jdsmith”]So who doesn’t fucking understand?
[/quote]
Now now…you are losing your temper a bit here.
OK. To go back a few steps: your assertion that Bobby Sands was a hero and that the 911 terrorists are deserving of respect because they believe in their own convictions was stupid and ill-conceived.
Have fun twisting words in this forum.
FWIW, I am attacking your post, not you. You are now doing the opposite.
Flip
Flop
Flap
(whatever that means)
BroonAmiable
Unjustifiable- murder of innocents.
Rational/ Irrational- what do you want clarified?
The action was rational in the strictest sense: the action produced the desired ends. Whether or not the ends are rational is another question. To that extent, there’s a degree of virtue in the act (the virtue of a suicide warrior being that he takes out the target), which might well be called courage.
Sacrificing oneself, while rational in pursuit of ends, is to some degree irrational, as the victim is never able to enjoy the outcome. Not a problem is self-regard is not a high priority in the scale of values.
[quote=“jdsmith”]The decision to sacrifice one’s life is not an easy one under any circumstances. That any one person can actually do this to me shows a certain strength of willpower. I am leaving aside and an all judgements on the rightness or wrongness of the reason, and focusing ONLY on the decision itself.
[/quote]
So start a new thread then. After all this was supposed to be about the US military.
BroonAgape
What if you actually believe in the prospect of eternity with 73 vurrrginz, but like really, really fit ones?
People kill themselves all the time, mostly out of cowardice or an inability to deal with life. Someone topping themselves for a political belief just makes that death all the more a welcome event, in my book.
HG
[quote][quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“jdsmith”]So who doesn’t fucking understand?
[/quote]
Now now…you are losing your temper a bit here.[/quote]
Am I? So I am not allowed to use adjectives? “Frustrated” might be a better word though. Anger? Noop.
Again, I have retracted that original poorly stated post; I mistakenly referred to their political positions as the reason of my respect. I cannot make it any more clear to you that that is not what I had intended to say.
Have I not tried to clarify my position with every post? I said it is a difficult position for me to explain online as it seems full of contradictions.
[quote]FWIW, I am attacking your post, not you. You are now doing the opposite.
[/quote][/quote]
I don’t buy this any more than you do. You are attacking me and my “stupid” position. But you know what? I don’t care. And quite probably, neither do you.
You don’t want me to attack you, then don’t fucking attack me with your passive aggressive humour. You wish to understand my POV, then try asking me to clarify it. You may find that I am quite responsive.
[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“jdsmith”]The decision to sacrifice one’s life is not an easy one under any circumstances. That any one person can actually do this to me shows a certain strength of willpower. I am leaving aside and an all judgements on the rightness or wrongness of the reason, and focusing ONLY on the decision itself.
[/quote]
So start a new thread then. After all this was supposed to be about the US military.
BroonAgape[/quote]
You could very easily have asked me to clarify myself in a PM too. I didn’t want to hijack this thread, and I certainly didn’t do it by myself.
in what context? Does the US military and any collateral deaths that it causes fall under the same aegis?
The context…
So you subscribe to a view that the ends matter more than the means?
Okay, now we have a context…
define virtue. define courage.
hmmm
so what scale of values should we be looking at? What are we looking at here? What is jdsmith looking at? Why does Broon Ale disagree? Is there an objective reality here that can united these disparate views or is this going to be a subjective reductionist discussion where we will all have to “agree to disagree?”
Like Jesus?
Or Socrates?
NOT that I am comparing them to anyone mentioned in this thread…is that clear?
Fred:
Yes. Irrelevant. No. Do we? Buy a dictionary. hmm-hmm. I have my own; it differs from others. Depends what you’d like to know. Ask him, and him. Looking for wiggle room, or just a soft spot to plant a boot?
to what?
???
I smell an evasion.
Understood loud and clear!
JD:
[quote][quote]HG:
People kill themselves all the time, mostly out of cowardice or an inability to deal with life. Someone topping themselves for a political belief just makes that death all the more a welcome event, in my book. [/quote]
Like Jesus?
Or Socrates?
NOT that I am comparing them to anyone mentioned in this thread…is that clear?[/quote]
I still don’t get any sense of something extra special, bloody minded, maybe. Socrates was supposedly offered exile. Now if he was as keen a teacher as he was supposed to be, he could have added to humanity even in exile. He selfishly chose honour. Jesus I don’t know about, was it suicide?
But as you say JD, it’s a personal thing.
HG